Schwab File Cabinet with La Gard 3330

[iStitch]

Hello folks!

I have been reading up on here the past week or so. I finally joined because now I have some specific questions. Thanks to all members for the great wealth of knowledge that's on this board. I'm glad to be a part of the group!

Personal intro:
Locks have fascinated me since I was young. I started picking locks over 20 years ago as a hobby. I never bought a pick set, just made my own tools and went for it. I was only able to save the day with my skills a few times in my life, but the look on family and friends faces when you open their house or lock for them is priceless! I'm way out of practice, don't even have picks anymore, but now I am interested again, thanks to the board.

My interest sparked again because I just got a locking file cabinet. It's a Schwab 1000, I believe, and it was being given away for free locally, because it was locked and the owner didn't have the combination. Prior to picking it up, I called around a few smiths to see how much it would cost to have them open it and repair or replace the lock. Prices were fair, but it seemed like more hassle than it was worth. As a last ditch effort, I called Schwab and got the factory combination for the La Gard 3330. I told the person giving away the cabinet that the factory numbers might work. Sure enough, they gave it a try and it opened. I congratulated them and told them I would understand if they didn't want to get rid of it now. They said they didn't want it and to make an offer, any offer. So I went and picked it up for $30!

Now that I have this thing home, the first thing I noticed is the damage to the lock. The dial is crooked and does not spin smoothly/freely. The lock does work, though. I have noticed there seems to be a little wear or something that makes the gates line up about +/- 0.5-1.0 of the number it's set for. I am a little worried about actually locking this thing now, because I don't know if I can trust the lock. I tired it about 10 times with it open to visually check the alignment and made a note of the proper sequence to dial. But I still worry about it.

So my first question is, should I try to disassemble the lock and straighten it? I am mechanically savvy, but this will be my first time tearing open a lock other than a tumbler. So I don't really know what little things to look for. Bad case scenario, I can't straighten it and need a new lock. Worst case scenario, I think I fixed it well, but one day the box doesn't open because the lock fails mechanically.

My second question... Are group 2 locks vastly different? If I wanted to buy a new lock in case I can't fix this one up, I need to know what to look for. I asked one of the locksmiths if I could bring a replacement lock from ebay or something for him to install after opening it. He advised that I had to be sure the lock was the right lock or it wouldn't mount. This was difficult for me to do prior to opening the box and seeing the lock model. Now that I know what it is, do I need to buy the same exact model for it to fit? Is there a list anywhere with interchangeability of lock models or brands? I have seen lots of group 2 locks on ebay for under $40, but the 3330 is a little harder to find and more expensive. This is a fireproof box, not a high security safe, so I don't necessarily need the best security, but I don't believe in the word overkill.

Finally, I would like to change the combination eventually. If I keep using this lock, should I be concerned about the mechanism failing from changing the combination? I haven't even looked up the procedure yet on this lock, nor do I have a change key for it. If a change key and shipping is more than $20, a new lock might just be in order anyway.

Here is a pick of it at the previous owners house, as it is currently torn apart right now. Also, some close ups of the lock. It is hard to see how crooked the dial is in the photo. It looks much worse in person.

[Squelchtone]

Moving this to This Old Safe, and I have some 3330's that I could sell you cheap, and a change key as well. How many inches is it from the door to the end of the spindle where the spline key is pressed in? you can remove the spine key and unscrew the dial so it is easier to measure the shaft.

I personally wouldn't try to straighten the spindle, or trust it afterwards, maybe on a practice lock mounted on a stand but it's inexpensive enough to just get a new dial/spindle.

Your container can accept all sorts of locks, LaGard, Sargent & Greenleaf, Kaba Mas, etc. Lagard 3330 or an S&G 6730 would work just fine.


Squelchtone

[iStitch]

Sorry if I posted in the wrong forum. Thanks for the reply.

Outside of the door to the end of the spindle looks to be exactly 2 inches. If I'm going to replace it, I could pull it apart and measure exactly to be sure.

Does the RL after the 3330 differentiate it much from other 3330 locks? And do you think I am limited to only using a 3330 in this box? If you have something that could work for a good price, I'd certainly be interested. Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it!

[Squelchtone]

it is a modern safe lock so they're all the same footprint, you could put all sorts of locks in there depending on $$$ and if you prefer to dial a number or press buttons on an electronic lock.

I prefer a mechanical dial lock, some folks like how easy a digital lock is to open.

Not sure what the RL stands for in 3330RL, it may be radio graphic xray attack resistant, as one of your wheels looks plastic vs brass. IIt could stand for Re Locker, I dont know.

nice job by the way getting the factory combination idea, well done.

[Raymond]

Without seeing more and up close, I would guess that the spindle is not bent. The dial ring has most likely been bumped and that is what is causing the difficulty turning. Remove the spline key and verify if the dial ring can be moved to straighten up the alignment. Then replace the dial and spline key. Many of us can just re-bump the dial ring with a soft punch and a hammer to straighten it. And please get all that grease off the inside!

[iStitch]

Squelchtone-
Yeah, wheel #3 is plastic. It hadn't occurred to me that might be unusual until you pointed it out.

Glad to know I can put any lock I want. I am mechanically minded, I will definitely not be putting anything digital on "this old safe". If you have something in your part bins that would work for me at a good price, I'd be happy to take something off your hands.

Without taking it apart, I'm assuming the spindle is what's bent and all I need is a new lock and spindle. Is that what you were thinking? Or should I just get another complete lock with dial? I don't mind cutting the spindle, I'm pretty sure I'm qualified for the task.

Without seeing more and up close, I would guess that the spindle is not bent. The dial ring has most likely been bumped and that is what is causing the difficulty turning. Remove the spline key and verify if the dial ring can be moved to straighten up the alignment. Then replace the dial and spline key. Many of us can just re-bump the dial ring with a soft punch and a hammer to straighten it. And please get all that grease off the inside!

I had just finished typing this last post about the spindle, then I saw your post. I can take more photos. But what I can tell you is that the "flange" part of the lock is seated flush all the way around on the face of the door. Also, there is no visible damage to the door. The actual dial is clearly not sitting straight.

Oh heck, I've got nothing to lose here, I'll take the thing apart and see! Sounds like Squelchtone will have something for me to replace this with anyway.

Before I take the spline key out, do I need the wheels to be in a any particular position if I want to be able to put it all back together properly? Or do I just go for it? I've photographed the position of the key, so I know where it goes, just not sure if I'm overlooking something else. I'm gonna study this for a bit, but if you happen to see my reply, let me know if I haven't already come back telling you about all the pieces I have everywhere! Haha!

[iStitch]

Okay, I took the dial off and two things happened.
1) I have the sudden urge to watch The Score.
2) I found a bent spindle

So, my next questions are:
1) I guess I'll try to bend it a little straighter, it's free to try. But when I screw it up, do you have another dial you can sell me, Squelchtone? I have 2.062" of threaded shaft.
2) Raymond, you mentioned the grease. Is there not supposed to be grease inside? Or is it just the amount or location of the grease that bothers you? I searched but was unable to find anything about this on the forum. Is there a reference somewhere on the forum or internet about how to clean and properly lubricate a group 2 lock? Can I degrease this thing chemically, or just take it apart and wipe it down? Any reference or suggestions would be helpful.
3) Is the spring clip holding the wheelpack in a reusable part? I'd like to pull them out for cleaning, but it is much different than machinery clips I'm used to working with, as it has no grab points or gap.

This is fun guys, I can't believe I never pulled apart a real lock like this before!

[Squelchtone]

heh, I just watched the Score yesterday (for the nth time). it just made its rounds to Amazon Prime movies and Pluto TV App.

I have to check some boxes to tell you what I have for a dial or complete lock, gonna be a long day today so I may not reply until some time tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience and glad you are enjoying this kind of work.

Squelchtone

[iStitch]

I made it through about 3/4 of The Score before falling asleep last night. I've got the DVD, yet for some reason I still streamed it, stupid.

Today, I've got this thing almost dialed in, no pun intended. Seeing how soft the spindle metal is, I figured I could bend it by hand. So I chucked the spindle into a collet on my mill and just hand turned the mill spindle to see the high and low on the dial. Bent it back by hand until it looked flat. It's not perfect, but it's one of those things where I know if I try to make it perfect, it will either break on the last bend, or I'll make it worse and have to spend 30 min to get it back almost as good as it is now. So I'm going to just let it be. Squelchtone, you said not to trust it after bending the spindle, so I did the least amount of bending to avoid fatiguing the spindle and I am not closing the box up with it. I am still open to putting a new lock on it based on your advice if you still think I shouldn't trust it. I probably only bent it about 3mm. If you didn't say anything, I would have just used it like this. But I'll wait for you to come back and reply before I lock the box again with this lock. Now I just need to clean up the lock and lubricate it if I am going to keep using it.

So I guess at the bare minimum, I just need a change key and maybe a new spindle and dial. Or just a whole new lock and I can make a cutaway with this one for fun. The spindle looked integral on this dial, but it's still dirty hard to tell if I can remove the spindle and replace it. Do you know if I can change the spindle on this?

[Squelchtone]

Glad you got your spindle straightened out because all I have is dials that have 1.5 inch spindles meant for displaying locks on a plastic stand for dialing practice. I mainly mention not trusting the lock akin to getting your old classic car in a wreck, having the body shop straighten the frame and fix the body up, and then it never quite drives straight down the road ever again no matter what you do. It may still work, but it always feels kinda off. When it comes to safe you want to have trust that it will work and work properly every time, especially if this was on a real safe with a big thick door that is hard (read: expensive) to drill when the lock fails in some interesting way. Other than feeling funky when you dial it though, it should probably still work just fine especially if you think you got it straight enough to not rub on the dial ring when spinning.

As far as lubrication, be careful, you dont want to over do it or put it on the wrong parts especially the wheels. But do scrape or wipe off the old vitrified grease off the cam and the surface of the wheel closest to the back cover.

I do have a few Lagard change keys, so send me a Private Message by clicking the white/blue link to "messages" on the left side of the forum, include your shipping address and I will throw a change key in an envelope for you later this week when I get to the post office.

Have a good night,
Squelchtone

[iStitch]

I understand, and I am the same way about things. But I also drive a 52 year old Land Cruiser, and sometimes better, just has to be good enough. It does feel much better, but still feels gummy, so it's not better enough. It needs a good cleaning. Hypothetically.... let's say someone wiped down their dirty lock and looked closer to figure out that ring I was talking about isn't a spring clip at all, but it's actually a split ring. And hypothetically... let's say that someone took their whole lock apart and wiped everything down really well. Then, hypothetically, let's say they were able to reassemble everything because it's actually really easy to do, so then they want to lubricate it properly. Aside from taking the wheels apart completely, how would that someone lubricate the wheel shaft and flys on the wheels? I have.... I mean, hypothetically, this person has many industrial lubricants in their shop, and they are willing to buy the proper one if they don't already have it. They also know that less is more, but proper amount and placement means everything.

Seriously, it's pretty simple and obvious where it needs to be lubed. I just want to do it correctly. I want this gumminess to go away and I will be happy. Any tips?

[Squelchtone]

Just lube the shaft as you normally would. and if dial is tight, remove spline key, unscrew dial one revolution, and press spline key back into the VD (Vertically Down) position if the bolt is mounted downwards. Should spin like butter now.

and don't get VD from lubing your shaft.

Squelchtone

[Raymond]

Put ***NO*** lube on the flys or in the groove where the flys move. You can also lube the dial where it sits in the dial bushing. You can also lube the inside of the wheels shaft where the drive wheel fits into it. But, don't get any lube on the tabs that stick out below the wheels as it will move onto the fly. The bottom wheel is OK to lube where it sits on the bottom. Lube the lock bolt and the ball bearing under it. Do not lube the shaft the lever rotates on.

From historical experience, grease used to dry up and turn into very difficult to move mud, so keep everything as light as possible.

[iStitch]

Well, I got everything cleaned up and put back together nicely. Only mistake I made, according to Raymond, is I lightly lubed the flys. I basically just wiped a slightly greasy finger on them, nothing you can see, but a light lubrication is there. I would call it the lightest amount of lubrication I have ever put on anything before. I followed my logic of moving machinery parts and thought that since metal is moving on metal, a little lubrication was needed. No big deal, I can just take the lock apart and wipe it down again. I cleaned the wheels and flys with hoppes gun cleaner, so I can just do that again without the lubrication this time.

Other that that, I lightly lubed the shaft the wheels spin on, again, very lightly. I also had to sand the inside of the fly on wheel number 3 a little. The wheel bushing looked a little out of round and the fly wasn't moving smoothly. I couldn't figure out a reason this would be intentional, so I gently formed the bushing on the wheel a little bit until it was about 75% round enough for the fly to move smoothly. Any more shaping would have been more than I was comfortable with, so I opted to polish the inside diameter of the fly to make the space needed to move freely. I used 400 grit paper rolled up and took just enough metal off to allow it to move freely.

I should add that wheel #3 is not plastic as we initially observed, but it is black metal. The fly was a uniquely green colored finish, but less like brass than I would have assumed after polishing the finish away inside.

The only thing I have noticed since putting it back together is that I am unable to leave the lock unlocked by turning the dial slightly back and forth to lock and unlock. Outside of the box, I was able to unlock it and turn the dial just enough to move the fence in and out of the gates to be locked or unlocked. Now, if I turn the dial, it just relocks itself. I am trying to wrap my head around why this happens, even though it doesn't do that if the door is open, only if it's closed.