Identifying the code of the lock

[TheAssaMan]

(Just want to say that this is a newbie post, 1st post after introduction)

As I understand it, the shear line is at the same place for all pins and the size of the wells for all pins are of the same size in all locks, so how would it be to identify the size of the pins in order to pick the lock.

If you know that one pin can be of 5 different sizes you want to know which of those 5 it is, then you can cut the key at a commercial size or file it yourself.

So my idea was just this. How about measuring how far the pins could be pushed up into the well, a shorter pin could be pushed farther, a longer pin could be pushed a shorter amount, and that measurement would give you the key? IS there some PUSH-INDIVIDUAL-PIN-AND-MEASURE-DEPTH-GAUGE to buy for this operation?

Am I way outaline here? Or is this a proven technique already? I just didn't find anything written about this and I just got this idea when I read about pins of different lengths and all.

[toomush2drink]

The technique you are on about i think has been used by falle safe and he does a decoder for cylinder locks that works by measuring the pins to decode the lock. Its been mentioned on this site before so a good use of the search facility should discover it.

Good first post and certainly makes a change from some of the paper clip or which lockpicks first posts

[PickPick]

While the Falle decoder works differently, this technique and another similar one have been used before. It's either like you wrote, you push the pin and look how far you can push it into the chamber or you push in the pins by a predetermined amount and measure the force with which they are pushed back by the spring. These force measurements will tell you how much the spring is compressed and this will tell you how long the whole pin stack is. Always assuming that the driver pins are all of the same length.
To my understanding, this is one of the reasons why several manufacturers have stopped using just one size of drivers and pin their locks so that they get balanced pin stacks. There you get a pin stack that has always the same size, a short bottom pin gets a long driver, a long bottom pin gets a short driver and so on.

[PickPick]

Btw, forgot to add this but just like toomush2drink I'd like to compliment you on your first post, it's a nice contrast to certain newbies we got during the last couple of days.

[TheAssaMan]

Hi guys, 2-3 hours and I have some really informative posts back from the community. I am impressed.

So my "bright idea" was shot down in flames. The makers of locks can make the pin stack (upper pin and lower pin) of equal length, and that is the end of the story. There is no way to measure a push-pin-up-depth. At least by mechanical means applied on bottom of pin stack.

(As a sideline, I have to confess I am interested in "system failures", when the lock is fool-proof, but when by some freakish circumstance, it is possible to circumvent security altogether).

We are all looking for that magic silver bullet, right?

When I get the ASSA lock I will cut it, take pics and show it here and see if we can analyze it.

BTW, any suggestions about cutting tools and where I should cut it?

[PickPick]

So my "bright idea" was shot down in flames. The makers of locks can make the pin stack (upper pin and lower pin) of equal length, and that is the end of the story.

No, not exactly. A lot of manufacturers don't employ balanced drivers as it makes assembly more expensive and probably also because some of them don't have a clue imho.
As for the cutaway lock, try to search the site a bit for ideas. Personally I like to make a slot along the whole length of the pin chamber using a doubled cut off wheel in my Dremel. But this is just for normal pin tumbler lock, if you had something like the ASSA V10 you should also try to expose the sidebar in some way. Anyway, here's an example of a lock I cut myself:
http://tinypic.com/e3wcl
Btw, check out the length of the driver pins.

[TheAssaMan]

Seems Dremel is the buzzword these days.

I will invest in one and see how i can use it. Seems to be the hobbyist answer to many questions.

[randmguy]

Not just hobbyists. The pros use Dremel tools for a lot of stuff too.

[MrB]

Nobody mentioned a comb pick? It might be that you can push all of the pin stacks right up above the shear line with a suitably shaped tool, and then the lock will open without further ado.

[Chucklz]

The comb pick vulnerability has been solved by most every manufacturer (Early Medeco were suceptible, so don't discount this technique). You can however, decode a picked lock with your technique. In many cases, it is simply easier to dissassemble a picked lock, but for Euro cylinders and many padlocks, it may be easier to decode the lock. Even if you cannot determine the difference between a 3 and 4 cut, you may be able to build relations, ie the first pin cut is shallow, and the second pin is a bit deeper, etc; that will help with impressioning.

[PickPick]

On the subject of balanced pin stacks, does anyone know whether the tubular lock manufacturers remember to balance? If not, it would make for a very easy decoding.