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Diebold & Kienzle

Forgot how to dial the combination on that old safe? Think you got the right numbers but the handle is stuck? What safe should you buy? Ask your safe questions here!
Forum rules
You are posting this in This Old Safe, a public area of the forum.

Safe manipulation discussion is allowed, but safe drilling or other destructive entry is only allowed in the Advanced - Safes and Safe Locks area.

If you are a guest of the forum and have a safe you need to open, but you do not have the combination, we cannot tell you how or where to drill it.

Diebold & Kienzle

Postby Csilva » 20 Apr 2021 21:10

I recently inherited my fathers old Diebold & Kienzle safe. I have not been able to find the combination anywhere need help unlocking. The safe is a double door safe standing about six feet tall on four casters. The two handles have the numbers stamped in them 85861. The dial says diebold and Kienzle of Cincinnati with the dates feb 19 1857 - nov 26 1867 in the middle and aug 16 1870. The dial starts with zero and goes to 50. Any information would help thanks.
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby Squelchtone » 21 Apr 2021 0:37

May I ask you to please upload some photos to free image hosting site https://www.imgur.com as Hidden/Private and then Copy/Paste the links here so we can take a look.. Unfortunately, just the description and serial number do not give us much to work with, and seeing the handle, dial, hinges, door corners, the casting of the wheel casters, all of those visual queues tell us a lot more info about the model and the procedures needed to dial it open or work out a lost combination.

Looking forward to seeing your safe!

Instructions for uploading to imgur if you should need them viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60483&p=445410#p445410

Thank you,
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby Csilva » 24 Apr 2021 23:27

[url]http://imgur.com/a/wewvtON[url]
https://i.imgur.com/h8Z5URU.jpg
Image

More photos:
http://imgur.com/a/M4Wj5zh
Last edited by Squelchtone on 24 Apr 2021 23:46, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed imgur links..
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby MartinHewitt » 25 Apr 2021 4:49

One of your photos has a chain around the handles ... So it stood for years unlocked and then someone came and turned the dial?

I don't have much information about the Diebold Kienzles. There is probably a 4-wheel "Peerless" lock inside about which I also don't know much. There seem to be Peerless locks with a normal mechanism, which can probably be manipulated. And there seem to be Peerless locks with additional mechanics, probably with the purpose to prevent some sort manipulation, but apparently it doesn't stop the current manipulation methods. Your safe doesn't look like a high-security safe, so it is probably the normal version of the Peerless inside.

I see three options for you.

1) You could learn manipulation of safe locks and manipulate the safe open. This will take quite a bit of time. It will be worth this time only if you have fun doing it.

2) You want to save money and don't care about the safe. Then break it open.

3) You want to keep the safe, but don't want to invest time. Then book a safe tech to open the safe for you. There is the safe tech organization with a list of techs: http://www.savta.org/savta_tech.php They do have probably an acceptable minimum level of skills. Typically he will make one small hole. A few will manipulate, but probably not with a 4-wheel lock. With standard locksmiths the risk is high, that the result is the same as when you break it open yourself.
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby Squelchtone » 25 Apr 2021 8:23

To tack on to what Martin said about getting into the safe yourself:

Whatever you do, do not break off the handles or dial and do not cut the hinges off! Those are rookie mistakes by those who think doing these things will get the doors to open.

Once they vandalize the safe trying to get in open and then call in a safe tech, the price just went up for what the tech will charge to open that safe.

Beautiful old safe by the way, I don't know much about that style either, you may find some answers on the Facebook Safe Collectors group.

Good luck
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby MartinHewitt » 26 Apr 2021 4:44

Squelchtone, in German we have three categories of safe opening:

1) Beschädigungsfrei: That means the safes doesn't get any damage, e.g. an opening by manipulation
2) Zerstörungsfrei: The safe is damaged, but the damage can be repaired and the safe can then still be used
3) Zerstörend: The safe is damaged and it can only be dumped.

Is there a similar wording for these three types in English?
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby 00247 » 26 Apr 2021 7:49

1) Skilled
2) Hacked
3) Butchered
??? lol

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You call that a safe? Let me show you a real safe...
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby bitbuster » 26 Apr 2021 9:11

Wow.... all that mess just to get in a straight tailpiece safe. It does, however, look like what's left after some Youtube storage locker buyers find a safe in the locker they just bought.
"I dream of a world where, chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned". Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby MartinHewitt » 26 Apr 2021 10:21

bitbuster wrote:Wow.... all that mess just to get in a straight tailpiece safe.

Are they in?
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby damonwill » 17 May 2022 15:49

All, I have the EXACT same safe and dial. I am asking if anyone knows how to dial it. I think it has 4 wheels and the dial is marked 0-50 with a large gap of no numbers (maybe 51-63ish)

I am looking for all/any of the following:
How to dial (5R, 4L, 3R, 2L, turn to stop?)
Where will the dial STOP when its "turn to stop"? If I have to put my dialer on it, I need to know approx where it will stop turning
gate indication points (approx). My dial is corroded and I'm not able to hear or feel the points
Anything else anyone could offer.
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby bitbuster » 17 May 2022 19:04

If your safe is same as in pic then you have a thick-wall D-K. It may have the Peerless or the Diebold/Eagle 161. Both locks are 4 wheeled. 54321, RLRLR. Not sure where 'last R to stop' will put you, but it will be a dead stop.
Looking at your last post I now see you said it has 50 numbers, with a possible forbidden zone between 50 and 1. This would mean a different lock, the D-K scissoring bolt lock. Do you see any numbers on the dial other than 0-50?
"I dream of a world where, chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned". Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby damonwill » 17 May 2022 19:49

bitbuster, you are AWESOME!!

Here is my thread:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=67113

My dial is an AUG 1870, so I think it is a scissoring bolt lock (according to the patent).

Here is my dial:
Image

And here are the numbers on it:
Image

Looks like I'll be writing code for my dialer to crack a 4 wheel dialer sooner than I expected. I've tried to manually manipulate it but its just too corroded. What is the "forbidden zone"? NEver heard that term...

Thanks for the info and anything anyone else would add would be wonderful!!!
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby MartinHewitt » 18 May 2022 12:35

Forbidden zone is the range of numbers the last wheel must not be set to to prevent problems. When a dial has a number gap it is in this gap.

A 4 wheel lock can take ages to try all numbers.
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby damonwill » 18 May 2022 12:51

Thanks for the knowledge.

My dialer has an custom algorithm and dialing procedure. Should take less than 4 days for this 4 wheel once I finish the code updates. I"ll post detail in the Advanced section for those interested.
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Re: Diebold & Kienzle

Postby bitbuster » 18 May 2022 12:51

Per Carl Cloud: "The Forbidden Zone for right-handed locks is the area between 0 and 20. This is really an expanded version, but a good rule to go by. It should cover idiosyncrasies, or wear within the lock. Condensed, the areas that causes the most problems are between 4 and 10 in a new S&G.I don't feel a number under 10 should ever be used in the number of a combination".
Carl continues with a 2 page article of the Forbidden Zone. If anyone wants a copy of the article PM me. I have permission.
"I dream of a world where, chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned". Ralph Waldo Emerson
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