Spool pins

[YelseW]

So by not picking heavy handedly, you mean to apply less torque and use weaker force to manipulate the pins? Also, could you please give me a link or describe how I could pass this "master pin." I have searched through many forums and googled it but no results. Thanks a lot.

[skold]

yes, thats exactly what i mean

[SFGOON]

Computer generated picks render security pins obsolete. It's like they're not even there. You may not develop a genuine appreciation of the fine art of lockpicking, but you'll open the lock.

[rakemaster]

Computer generated picks render security pins obsolete. It's like they're not even there. You may not develop a genuine appreciation of the fine art of lockpicking, but you'll open the lock.

I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. or at least it goes against everything I understand about how locks & picking works.

Rakemaster

[Buggs41]

Now I am really confused!

You say comp picks are evil, because they go against all you know about how locks work, and how to pick them.

Guess what???? It is the same thing!

You shove something in the lock, wiggle it about a bit, and add some turney type thingy.

Pin by pin, or raking thechniques all get the same results.

[rakemaster]

Now I am really confused!

You say comp picks are evil, because they go against all you know about how locks work, and how to pick them.

Guess what???? It is the same thing!

You shove something in the lock, wiggle it about a bit, and add some turney type thingy.

Pin by pin, or raking thechniques all get the same results.

Who said computer generated picks were evil? I certainly didnt. Dont put words in my mouth.

Somebody posted that computer generated picks make security pins obsolete which is just nonsense. The person who wrote that obviously doesn't know how security pins work and what they can and cant do.

PS I've used rakes and hooks and picked alot of security pins by both methods recently. There are security pins that work very well against both methods. Unless you have some pick that works by magic.

[Romstar]

Now I am really confused!

You say comp picks are evil, because they go against all you know about how locks work, and how to pick them.

Guess what???? It is the same thing!

You shove something in the lock, wiggle it about a bit, and add some turney type thingy.

Pin by pin, or raking thechniques all get the same results.

Who said computer generated picks were evil? I certainly didnt. Dont put words in my mouth.

Somebody posted that computer generated picks make security pins obsolete which is just nonsense. The person who wrote that obviously doesn't know how security pins work and what they can and cant do.

PS I've used rakes and hooks and picked alot of security pins by both methods recently. There are security pins that work very well against both methods. Unless you have some pick that works by magic.

Personally, I would be careful about saying anything about Goon's experience. He's proven himself to have quite the interesting background.

As for magic picks. The King and Queen, HPC's Comp-U-Picks and Majestic's High Tech pick sets. These picks pretty much render security pins useless through the very techniques by which they are intended to be used.

These picks are NOT, I repeat NOT intended for raking. They fall into the category of wave or profile picks. Their purpose is to simulate the bitting of a given key and manipulate the pins into working simultaneously as if the proper key were in place.

This is in direct opposition to all other picking techniques which require that individual pins be manipulated and held at the shear line. Or raking which relies on the mechanical principle of "force transferance".

I could write a 15 page or longer chapter on security pins alone. Suffice it to say that they are a pain in the ass, but their effectiveness is severely compromised by the use of profile picks.

Romstar

[captainsawdust]

Now I am really confused!

You say comp picks are evil, because they go against all you know about how locks work, and how to pick them.

Guess what???? It is the same thing!

You shove something in the lock, wiggle it about a bit, and add some turney type thingy.

Pin by pin, or raking thechniques all get the same results.

Turney Type Thingy ? = Tension Wrench

[Romstar]

Yeah, I let that one slide Ian.

Stick around here long enough, and you get used to all sorts of interesting new descriptions.

The key is in decoding them all.

Romstar

[rakemaster]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but I don't care how much
experiene this guy has, he's wrong if he says that computer
generated picks can just defeat all security pins.
They require skill just like any other kind of hand picking
just different skill and they dont always work.

maybe were just hung up on words but it sounded like thats what he
was saying and if so its just wrong. yes i understand how these
picks work.

Rakemaster

[PickPick]

Hmm, I don't think "that guy" is an appropriate name for our beloved Romstar (even though that guy still needs to answer my pm...).
But about the computer picks, can you please explain to me how security pins affect their use and make it more difficult in contrast to normal pins? These are basically try-out keys after all and not some kind of space-age rake picks.

[rakemaster]

Hmm, I don't think "that guy" is an appropriate name for our beloved Romstar (even though that guy still needs to answer my pm...).
But about the computer picks, can you please explain to me how security pins affect their use and make it more difficult in contrast to normal pins? These are basically try-out keys after all and not some kind of space-age rake picks.

I wasn't talking romstar as the guy, I was tallking about the guy
who said that computer picks make security pins obsolete (SFGOON?)
Anyway, no offence intended.

As you say computer picks are just tryout keys. They will not
open any lock and if he thinks they do he hasnt tried very many
locks! They dont make security pins obsolete at all.

Its true that tryout keys when they work can work against security pins. but its not true that they work against all locks. (also serrated pins I think can defeat tryout keys to some xtent).

Rakemaster

[Romstar]

HPC's Comp-U-Picks have a 82% plus success rate in cylinders ranging from standard Yale type to especially difficult paracentric style Euro Profile cylinders. The locks for which these picks have difficulty are Medeco, Emhart and Corbin type sidebar locks where the pins are required to be twisted to allow the sidebar to function.

They have proven to be very successful in sidebar locks which use a seperate "finger" type pin configuration. In combination cylinders such as the Scorpion and Assa V-10 locks, the picks are used twice. Once on the regular pins, and again at the side bar "fingers".

A variation of the Comp-U-Picks are used for sidebar only type locks such as the Australian Lock Company's Bi-Lock series.

Because the Majestic sets have more picks, they have set a 90% plus success rate in all locks not utilizing twisted pins.

While I understand the idea in calling computer designed picks "try out" keys, that is not actually a good description. Detailed computer modeling of a lock series' depth and spacing, MACS and other information reveal a set of patterns that result in a series of pick profiles capable of simulating the majority of proper key cuts when the pick is manipulated in the correct way.

Collating this information with other lock series, we see that a pick profile originally intended to open a YALE lock with biting 53523 is capable of opening an Ilco lock with biting 42412 with minimal manipulation. As you tilt the pick up and down the biting simulations change. This same pick is then capabale of opening a lock with 53412 or 42532. Moving the pick in and out of the keyway results in midrange bittings as the pins move up and down the slopes of the pick.

The most commonly encountered security pins are; 1. Mushroom, 2. Spool, and 3. Serrated. Other security pin types include ASSA's unique mushroom spool, as found in the V-10 or Twin locks, and pin in sleeve spool pins. The pin in sleeve type was most commonly utilized in Corbin locks, but has been seen in designs from other companies including Assa, Kaba and even Ilco. Lock manufactures have utilized a variety of methods to increase the effectiveness of these security pins. Including very thin bottoms for spool pins, tapered bottom mushroom pins, and even counter milling in the cylinder to catch the security pins.

Each and every one of these methods is severely compromised when confronted with a wave or profile pick such as the Comp-U-Picks, or other similar tools. Why is this?

Because security pins are designed to grab as you slowly lift the pin stack to the shear line they are quite effective at frustrating single pin picking techniques. Since the profile or wave pick raises the pin stack to, or almost near the proper height the security pin has less likelihood of catching on the cylinder shear line. Despite Mr. Hampton's assertation that security pins were designed to defeat pick guns, this is highly unlikely if the pick gun is used in the proper manner. Pick guns utilize the mechanical principle of force transferance, and as a result when propery used, the driver pins are thrown up into the cylinder completely bypassing the shear line. In actuality, pick gun defeats by security pins are a result of improper tension techniques.

More accurately, the security pin was developed as a direct answer to the inherant slopiness of the manufacturing techniques of the time. As manufacturing accuracy has improved, the security pin has found it's home in dealing with the more accurate and professional methods of hand picking. The skill and feeling required to cope with these much more accurately machined locks and security pins is formidable.

Going back to our point however, as you practice with, and utilize the profile style picks you come to realize just how impressive these modeling techniques are in providing a wide variety of usable profiles. These picks when properly used by a skilled picker almost complete negate the advantge of security pins by manipulating all the pin stacks at the same time and raising them to the shear line as if the proper key were in fact inserted in the lock. Even beginner pickers have found that these picks significantly enhance their ability to cope with, and defeat security pins in all but the most secure pin tumbler locks.

Romstar

[Romstar]

Oh, by the way Rakemaster...

No offence taken. The written word can be hard to interpret sometimes.

Have a good one,
Romstar

[PickPick]

Except for the pm thing, the same goes for our beloved SFGOON. And I'd say he's right about the statement that these picks render security pins obsolete. Of course they only work on the lock they were designed for, standard pin tumbler locks with a fairly unrestricted keyway. But if these requirements are met, security pins don't play a big role anymore. Maybe spool pins might cause small problems because they usually cause a large plug rotation but especially serrated pins don't matter a lot because they don't misalign your plug that much. Anyway, mine just collect dust somewhere, no fun to use and they don't fit most locks I'm picking anway.