Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.
by prevariikation » 23 Sep 2021 16:19
This lock idea is super cool  Coming up with a new idea while being aware of manufacturing costs and restrictions is a heck of a challenge.. How are the number of distinct bittings calculated in the provisional patent? I'm guessing total bittings = (8 wafers)^(4 cuts) - (number violating MAC restrictions)? What is the effective MAC of the system? It seems like there's a tradeoff between the keyway size, ideally small to constrain lockpicking tools, versus the MAC, to preserve physical continuity of the key. And I feel like you've addressed disadvantages of the leaf springs pretty well, but I had a couple thoughts. - It seems like the sidebar can be directly accessed underneath the wafers, and I think it's possible to (weakly) reverse-bias the binding order. By pushing the front end of the sidebar down using an L-shaped tool slipped between the front wafer and lock body, tensioning the lock should cause the rear wafers to bind first, as only the rear spring will be compressed. I am not sure if my logic is sound here.
- Since the cutout in the bottom of the leaf spring needs to be large enough to accomodate the full sidebar (like a true gate,) one might be able to perform keyspace reduction by pushing a wire into the gap and feeling middle-to-back and middle-to-front for gate positions. In particular, this attack gains effectiveness if a manufacturer opts for only one false gate. Depending on false gate layout, one might be able to further eliminate false gates by applying MAC restrictions.
Totally unrelated, but has anyone built a working prototype? The animation is incredibly informative and I think this mechanism would be wonderfully cool to see in person too.
she/her/hers
-

prevariikation
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 22 Feb 2021 0:44
by Yehonatan Knoll » 24 Sep 2021 9:32
Thanks prevariikation, Calculating the number of distinct bittings for key of length n, B(n), is done through recursion, relative to B(n-1). It's a non trivial combinatorial problem I can elaborate on if math is your thing. B(n) grows very rapidly with n but still sub exponentially.
Your method from point (1) won't work; pushing down on the front of the sidebar would resist tensioning. Nevertheless, if you could insert a tool *from the outside*, reaching the rear end of the sidebar and lifting it, this could indeed pose a problem. You are correct on point (2) but note that, the choice of locating the spring in the middle, is just to help with tolerances stack-up. And at the back, you could have a step, mimicking that of the wafers in fig. 11, as part of the cylinder.
I have not produced a working prototype yet. Too busy with other things. But I do think it could make a cool premium lock/cylinder. Should you or or anyone else here want to collaborate - I'll be glad.
-
Yehonatan Knoll
-
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 28 Aug 2019 5:43
by prevariikation » 24 Sep 2021 12:49
Yehonatan Knoll wrote:Calculating the number of distinct bittings for key of length n, B(n), is done through recursion, relative to B(n-1). It's a non trivial combinatorial problem I can elaborate on if math is your thing.
That'd be cool  I've messed around with combinatorics a bit. Good to know that (1) isn't workable. Getting sidebar access from outside would difficult. And as you said for (2), there are easy modifications to make the leaf spring configuration more robust. Yehonatan Knoll wrote:I have not produced a working prototype yet. Too busy with other things. But I do think it could make a cool premium lock/cylinder. Should you or or anyone else here want to collaborate - I'll be glad.
I wish I had the machining skills! I'll be on the lookout for anyone who can though.
she/her/hers
-

prevariikation
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 22 Feb 2021 0:44
by GWiens2001 » 24 Sep 2021 22:01
If I could get STL files, I could 3D print the parts and test it out. I also know some machinists whom I can see if they would help with making a prototype model, if you like.
Because it is your design, I will not try to create my own STL files. I value the work of those who create and engineer things, and do not support just taking their ideas.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
-

GWiens2001
- Site Admin
-
- Posts: 7550
- Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
- Location: Arizona, United States
by Yehonatan Knoll » 25 Sep 2021 14:16
Much appreciated, GWiens2001. But my invitation to collaborate pertains to actual prototypes in terms of dimensions and materials. The tolerances in the cad model assume certain production methods. Simply printing the parts (from metal?) would not work.
-
Yehonatan Knoll
-
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 28 Aug 2019 5:43
by GWiens2001 » 25 Sep 2021 20:31
I have some friends who own a business that designs and manufactures parts for several industries with 5 axis CNC machines. They can do very exact tolerances, but I do not know their workload at this time.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
-

GWiens2001
- Site Admin
-
- Posts: 7550
- Joined: 3 Sep 2012 16:24
- Location: Arizona, United States
by prevariikation » 26 Sep 2021 13:57
So I've been working out the recursion for distinct bittings, but I seem to be undercounting bittings somehow. If someone could set me right, I'd appreciate the insight. It seems like the MAC in this system is 1. If B m( n) is the number of keys of length n that end with a cut of m (cuts considered to be {1,2,3,4},) then I think the recursive properties satisfied would be B1(n) = B1(n - 1) + B2(n - 1) B2(n) = B1(n - 1) + B2(n - 1) + B3(n - 1) B3(n) = B2(n - 1) + B3(n - 1) + B4(n - 1) B4(n) = B3(n - 1) + B4(n - 1)
aka, a key with an ending cut of 3 could only have a previous cut of 2, 3, or 4. Since there are exactly four ways to start a key, I populated this chart. (Turns out there's an expression of the total number of keys as a function of the Fibonacci sequence, where F m = mth number in Fibonacci sequence, given F 0 = 0 and F 1 = 1.) - Code: Select all
# of wafers, | # of keys with a | Total distinct keys with n | last bitting of | n wafers (= 2 * F_[2n+1]) | 1 2 3 4 | -------------+---------------------+-------------------------- 1 | 1 1 1 1 | 4 = 2 * 2 2 | 2 3 3 2 | 10 = 2 * 5 3 | 5 8 8 5 | 26 = 2 * 13 4 | 13 21 21 13 | 68 = 2 * 34 5 | 34 55 55 34 | 178 = 2 * 89 6 | 89 144 144 89 | 466 = 2 * 233 7 | 233 377 377 233 | 1220 = 2 * 610 8 | 610 987 987 610 | 3194 = 2 * 1597 9 | 1597 2584 2584 1597 | 8362 = 2 * 4181 10 | 4181 6765 6765 4181 | 21892 = 2 * 10946
So I'm undercounting keys somehow, since I end up with 3194 for an 8-wafer system, instead of the 3482 in the provisional patent. I've calculated that the key counts in the patent numerically match the same recursive properties, but there's something I'm overlooking 
she/her/hers
-

prevariikation
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 22 Feb 2021 0:44
by Yehonatan Knoll » 26 Sep 2021 14:32
Nice job:) And I didn't realize the Fibonacci connection!
I must have made a mistake. Just calculated the recursion (simplified by the symmetries) manually.
-
Yehonatan Knoll
-
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 28 Aug 2019 5:43
by prevariikation » 26 Sep 2021 17:33
Oh, I feel that! I did the addition manually at first and had to redo seven rows  Cool, at least I wasn't neglecting something obvious. The closed formula using Fibonacci numbers was a nice surprise.
she/her/hers
-

prevariikation
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 22 Feb 2021 0:44
by prevariikation » 29 Nov 2021 19:04
Would you be comfortable sharing dimensions for some of the lock parts? I tried to model the bittings using hand-measurements from the PDF, but I'm now trying to use that model to identify bittings which can't be picked with straight tools. Taking the "Euro-profile" idea seriously, I cross-referenced the PDF housing length with the length of my euro cylinder, and ended up with a wafer thickness of ~0.068". But now I see the probe in fig. 10 was assigned a width of 0.5mm, which would put the wafer thickness closer to ~0.045". I guess I also assumed the distance between cuts is the same as the wafer thickness, I'm guessing that's not right either?
she/her/hers
-

prevariikation
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 22 Feb 2021 0:44
by Yehonatan Knoll » 30 Nov 2021 6:01
The current design only matches Eurocylinder in diameter (length is not an issue...). Wafer width=1.3 mm (key segments=1.13 each).
My intuition is that the percentage of key bittings not preventing a straight tool insertion is too small to be practically exploited as a weakness (one can also simply discard them).
I can send you some solid file if you wish.
-
Yehonatan Knoll
-
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 28 Aug 2019 5:43
by prevariikation » 30 Nov 2021 8:20
I would appreciate that  my email address is prevarikation@gmail, if that's easiest. Thank you for the clarifications, I'll try to update the visualizer today. The current model suggests that, for 10 wafers, ~75% of the keyspace is theoretically pickable front-to-back using a thin allen wrench. (The long end would be held horizontally, shaft near the bottom of the keyway, and twisted to turn the tip of the shorter end to manipulate wafers.) As you said, even just excluding bittings still leaves >2000 with substantial pick resistance, so none of this is meant as an affront to the design! I was just wondered what a "city rake" kit would statistically be for this lock.
she/her/hers
-

prevariikation
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 22 Feb 2021 0:44
by Yehonatan Knoll » 30 Nov 2021 15:27
75% is a lot! Yet another lesson why not to trust your intuition when it comes to nontrivial combinatorics... Would be interesting to see how this percentage changes with the number of wafers. It clearly vanishes asymptotically.
-
Yehonatan Knoll
-
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 28 Aug 2019 5:43
by Yehonatan Knoll » 30 Nov 2021 15:36
To be clear - did you define "pickable combination" as one which does not have *both* maximal right and maximal left gates? If so then 75% still looks much too high...
-
Yehonatan Knoll
-
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 28 Aug 2019 5:43
by prevariikation » 30 Nov 2021 16:15
I apologize, I made multiple mistakes and inverted the results of the 8-wafer case  With the updated sizing data and a thin hex wrench of thickness 1.27mm = 0.050", it's returning: - 8 wafers: 1696 of 3194 (≈53%) total bittings prevent straight tool manipulation
- 10 wafers: 15834 of 21892 (≈72.3%)
"Pickable" combinations include any bittings without a maximal right and left gate, but I also tried to account for those that would allow a tool to reach at an angle. In the code, we attempt to measure if there's a path for a straight tool from the opening to the back of the rearmost wafer in rest position. Paths are checked from -45 to 45 degrees, in 5 degree increments. The algorithm is based on a check for a vertical rod: we identify the potential contact points (the interior corners of the wafers,) and see if the rightmost left-hand contact point and leftmost right-hand contact point are separated by at least the width of the rod, meaning that there is a clear path through. Then we simulate rotation of the rod by instead rotating the contact points by the given angles. I'll try to put up a drawing, it's not a complicated idea but I don't know if it's explained/coded well.
she/her/hers
-

prevariikation
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 22 Feb 2021 0:44
Return to Locks
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests
|