Mosler safe manipluation - stumped

[Squelchtone]

(See pictures for details.)
https://1drv.ms/a/s!Ak7Wjkc-9RDYxxQMfJ2 ... b?e=oE8coc

Hi All. A relative has an old Mosler safe I have been trying to manipulate for them, but I am having trouble. Looking for any guidance, tips, or tricks. The site has been super-helpful as I successfully manipulated a different Mosler safe for them. Both safes were passed down to them from their parents (and possibly grandparents?).

I believe this is the serial number: 113023

Based on the Mosler serial number post here:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=62920
...the date is pretty old, but I find that hard to believe. It just doesn't seem like it's that old (1898?).

I believe it is a three combo lock. I'm 95% sure that the third number is 45, strong indications with AWL @ 35 and the third wheel around left, as well as AWL with isolation.

I'm less sure about the second number. Best indications are in the 16-21 range and maybe something in the 95-99 range. To get that I used L35 - AR - L45. Tried every 2 around right for the second number.

Thought I was good to go, but the first number eludes me when going AL - R20 - L45. I get some strange indications around 5-10: Very "hard" like it's cleanly hitting the indications, really loose in the contact area, and pushing it beyond takes effort. Sometimes even feels stuck when turning to the left when back in the contact area when dialing 8-20-45. Thought the fence might just not be dropping, so I've hit the safe with a rubber hammer, but no luck.

One thought I had is that it might be a 4 combo lock, but I really think that's unlikely, and it just doesn't feel like it, but I'm open to any ideas on how to make sure, or whether someone can tell from my pictures.

Any thoughts/tips/help appreciated!

[MartinHewitt]

Hi, The serial is not the serial of the safe, but of the certification. This safe is probably from around the 1950s.

The lock installed is probably one of the many "flipper fence" locks Mosler made. A flipper fence is a spring loaded rotary fence which opens to the left. So the official dialling direction would be 4R-3L-2R-L to stop. You don't need to change your direction for the manipulation, just need to remember to change the direction when the fence falls. It should have 3 wheels, but feel them to make sure.

With friction fence and flipper fence locks there can be especially near the end of the manipulation the need or benefit to switch to CP intensity, because the CP doesn't shift, only the intensity changes. So "hitting hard" sounds excellent. In cases like this I graph the intensity by thicker and thinner lines. An exact intensity is not needed. "it's stronger, so I'll draw the line a bit thicker there than before" is all it needs. So I do recommend to find a good hard hitting point for wheel 1 and then check wheel 2. You probably need the intensity there too.

[SafeAndSound]

Thanks MartinHewitt!

> So I do recommend to find a good hard hitting point for wheel 1 and then check wheel 2.
I see, so the harder/more solid the contact point is an indication on one of the wheels?

> You don't need to change your direction for the manipulation, just need to remember to change the direction when the fence falls
So, when attempting to open the safe, I need to dial 4R-3L-2R-L to stop using the numbers I've discovered during manipulation, correct? Would it make sense to use that going forward during manipulation anyway to have a more accurate sense of the numbers? I've heard they can be slightly different when going in the opposite direction due to the width of the fly and drive pins.

Also, any good online resources/videos that describe a "flipper fence" lock in more detail? Or is that just a term for a lock that opens to the left instead of the right?

[MartinHewitt]

Yes, the deeper the fence sits, the harder the CP hits.

For a normal opening by the user it is 4R-3L-2R-L to stop. Now you have your numbers as 4L-3R-2L. You can't use the same numbers reversing rotation. There is nearly always some offset. With the high end Moslers there was possibly no relevant offset, but I doubt it is the case with this later, cheaper Mosler lock. In your current situation you probably need only to determine the new center for the third wheel as the others didn't yet show gates. So it might be not that bad to switch now.

On keypicking are probably photos of flipper fence locks, but it is down atm.

[MartinHewitt]

Found something for you to have a look:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/387106773132

[SafeAndSound]

That set of pictures from ebay is super helpful! The contact area on the drive cam is nearly symmetrical and (at least towards the top, but past the very outer edge) the width doesn't change much at all, so I see why it would "hit hard" and also not indicate as much due to a change in distance past the first wheel found.

I can also see why you need to turn it left at the end to open (and therefore it being 4R-3L-2R-L). A picture is worth 1000 words. Thank you!

When I next get out there to work on it I'll redo the third wheel with the correct rotation to get the new number, and then go for the remaining wheels with the correct rotation and feel for a change in the contact point intensity as much as (or more than) the distance between the contact points changing.

I'll let you know how it goes!

[MartinHewitt]

Good luck!

[SafeAndSound]

Quick update: I finally got back to attempting this one and resulted in success!

MartinHewitt you were right: It was 4R-3L-2R-L. The numbers I had found already were pretty close, but that first number was completely different than any indications I had when searching as if it were 4L-3R-2L-R. Such a great feeling when it stops dead in the contact area.

Thanks again for the help! Owners very much appreciated getting it open!

[MartinHewitt]

That was really well done! And thank you for reporting back to us!