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by lplink » 8 Mar 2005 1:08
First, some brief background:
I read the MIT lockpicking guide and Matt Blaze's Notes on Picking Pin Tumbler Locks, but now I'm having terrible difficulty in practice. I can successfully pick a see-through 5 pin Unlock Technologies practice lock by looking at the pins as I'm picking it, but completely fail when I don't look at it. I managed to pick a small 4 pin Master padlock 3 times in about half an hour, but that was due as much to random frustrated poking and prodding as to methodological picking.
So I decided to take Blaze's advice, and start from the beginning. I'm using a kwikset deadbolt, ANSI grade 3, and a LAB "deep hook" (which I think is similar in size to a Peterson small hook, which Blaze recommends as a beginner's pick for a lock of this type and size), to work through his exercises. Practiced a bunch with one pin, then a bunch with two pins, 'till it was easy and I could reliably feel pin state. But now I'm stuck on three pins:
My problem is that I can't tell where the tip of my pick is, either depth-wise or vertically, when trying to manipulate the second and third pins. With no torque applied, I can slide the pick along the pins, and feel it bumping along, slightly pushing up each pin as it goes, and locate (and count) the pins that way. Using the same method, I can position the pick under any desired pin. Pivoting the pick on a ward, I can then lift the desired pin, feeling the spring tension. Of course, keeping the pick in the same position in my hand, I have to apply more force through a smaller distance to lift rearward pins than forward pins. However, when lifting rearward pins high, the pick's tang contacts and slightly lifts forward pins, thus adding to the downward force on the pick, and also maintaining downward force on the pick even after I've lifted a binding rearward pin while I'm applying torque, thus fooling me into thinking I'm feeling spring tension on a set pin when I'm actually feeling spring tension from a more forward pin. Furthermore, once I've set, or partially set, a pin, there is of course no longer downward force (besides gravity) on the key pin, so when I slide the pick along the pins, counting bumps to locate pins, my count and my location are thrown off. If I failed to completely set the pin on the first try, then when I try to find the next binding pin, there won't be one, so I have to return to partially set pin and finish setting it. But if it's pin 2 or 3, then I can't see it, so I have to locate it by feel, and I've just explained, I _can't_ locate it by feel! So I have to guess its location, based on the locations of the two adjacent pins (assuming those aren't already set, and if they are, it makes the problem even worse), which is extremely difficult considering that just a millimeter makes the difference between hitting the pin head-on and hitting between it and an adjacent pin. So when I begin to push the pick up, I can't identify what I'm feeling, and I can never tell whether that little "click" and slight jerk is from the pin setting, or from the pick slipping off of the pin, or from some previously set pin dropping because the plug shifted back slightly because I accidentally overset the pin I'm working on because I can't tell by feel what's going on inside the lock.
Very frequently, I end up in the state where all three pins are nearly set but not quite, or (as best as I can tell) two pins set but one pin only almost set but I can't tell which of the three is not quite set, and so, as explained above, the fact that there's no spring tension on the pins means that I'm completely unable to position the pick under any particular pin, and am even just as likely to accidentally position the pick between two pins as on any one particular pin, so pushing the pick up provides no useful information, no matter what I feel. At this point I'm reduced to randomly tapping upward in various places with the pick, in an attempt to hit the almost-set pin(s), or even just raking the lock; sometimes this successfully opens the lock, sometimes not.
So, basically, before applying torque, I can find all the pins, and manipulate them. But once I begin picking the lock, I can longer tell where my pick is or what state the pins are in. Only when I have a mere two pins, in which case it's trivial to locate and distinguish the pins, can I detect pin state and pick the lock properly and reliably. Further practice is producing only frustration, not progress, so surely there's something wrong with my technique.
Can any of the more experienced folks here provide me advice based on this information?
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lplink
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by tastyfish » 8 Mar 2005 1:38
Woah, you dont have compeat with ROMSTAR here, geez thats long.
Umm, try using very light tention so the pins are still pritty loose in the shaft, and pratice.
If it doesn't seem to make sence, take a minuite to look at who said it... do you still want to know?
-shes not my special lady, im just helping her conceive.-
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by digital_blue » 8 Mar 2005 2:10
lplink: Wow. I truly wish all newbie questions were this detailed!
First off, let me say that I think your theoretical understanding is very good. That makes for a good start. I honestly think that if nobody here even responded to your posts and you were left to merely practice and figure it out for yourself you would do just fine. Having said that, let's see if we can help you out a bit.
First off, I would say that you should put away the see-through lock. I didn't actually ever use a cutaway lock until much after I had learned the basics of picking. Having now used a cutaway lock, I have come to the conclusion that it could as easily be a detriment to your skill development as an asset. The reason for this is that, I believe, when you receive visual feedback about pin states you are not training yourself to rely on physical feedback. Any experienced picker knows that the whole business of lock picking is in the physical feedback. Without it, you might as well just poke around in there with an icepick. I woudl say that if you take away the possibility of visual feedback you will find that you quickly learn to feel what is going on. At the same time you will learn to visualize the goings on, rather that see them visually.
Also, I wonder a bit about the physical characteristics of the lock you are working on. It could be that it has really poor/weak springs. You might find that a better quality deadbolt lock will have stronger springs, which will give you more to go on as you pick.
Another thought is that you might look at the position of your pick in the lock. Try not to tilt the handle up to much, as this will cause the neck of your pick to hit the more foward pins as you work on the back ones. Try sliding the pick into the keyway so that the bottom of the pick neck is parallel to the bottom of the keyway, then use a pivoting motion to raise the tip of your hook upward.
Finally, if you are having difficulties gauging where the pins are, you might try this: hold your pick up beside the key for the lock you are working on, and use a pencil to mark out where the pins are onto the pick itself. For the first mark, make the distance from the tip of the pick to the first marking equal to the distance on the key form the shoulder to the middle of the first cut. Then make additional marks on the side of your pick that represent the distance from pin to pin. This is easy enough to figure out by measuring off the key. This way as you learn, you will be able to slide the pick in to where you think you are under a pin, and verify it by glancing at the side of the lock. The nice thing about using pencil marks is that they will wipe off easily, and any oif the graphite that comes off in the lock will only serve to lubricate the lock, which is never a bad thing.
I hope all this helps you. Thanks again for a great question. Detailed question = detailed answer. Just the way I like it. Keep us informed at how you are progressing.
Happy picking!
db

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digital_blue
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by vector40 » 8 Mar 2005 2:42
I want to say that your problem isn't some silly newb thing, lp; it's almost exactly like some of the problems I've noticed myself. You're encountering the stuff that makes bridging theoretical understanding and practical ability a challenge.
And I disagree strongly with db in his contention that a cutaway can't help you. Indeed, if you weren't working with one, you wouldn't just be challenged right now, you'd be baffled -- you wouldn't even know what the problem was.
He's right, of course, in saying that the ability to pick a lock is couched largely in the ability to feel (and to some extent, hear) what's going on inside -- to create your "mental image" based on peripheral senses. So you should be paying loads of attention to this as you pick as a matter of course. The point of the cutaway is that you can connect these sensations -- "I feel x, now I feel y, now I feel x again" -- with an understanding of their significance. In other words, you could learn the entire Spanish language, but if you don't know which Spanish words mean which English ones, it won't do you a lick of good. If you don't know which feelings mean which physical realities, it won't do you any good either, unless you happen to actually get the lock open. But that's like trying to find Hoboken with a blindfold on by just wandering until you get there... then trying to remember what route you took.
Just my thoughts... I confess that I can't help you much with your problem.
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by digital_blue » 8 Mar 2005 2:53
vector, you make very good points. As for the cutaway note that I did say that it could as easily be a detriment as an asset. If you use the cutaway exactly as you describe, to help create the link between what you feel and what you hear, I agree that it can certainly be an asset. I still beleive, however, that there is a tendency not to do this, and it is far too easy to slip into a pattern where you simply "open" the lock visually. The possibility of misuse of the cutaway is pretty great. Judging by the problems lp describes, I suspect that this is exactly whay he has done.
I managed to "learn spanish" without the aid of a cutaway lock, so I don't think your analogy is perfect. Thanks for your insights though. I think your posts serves to really describe how a cutaway should be used. Actually doing it is left to the user. Your milage may vary.
db
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by digital_blue » 8 Mar 2005 2:54
Above should have read "what you feel and what you see". Darn lack of edit... grumble grumble murmer complain.....
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by vector40 » 8 Mar 2005 3:22
Oh, sure. The way I use mine is a little like how I study foreign languages (the only one of which I know being spanish, ironically), as a matter of fact: start out using lots of visual reference, then keeping picking it open over and over, trying to slowly "wean" myself off my eyeballs as I go. Eventually I get to the point where I'm only glancing at it occasionally, as a kind of "okay, what the hell's going on now?" cheat sheet; once that's done, I'm spitting distance from success.
How do you keep from looking? Well... there's always closing your eyes. Or just stare into the void. Or read LP101. Hey.
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by zekeo » 8 Mar 2005 14:22
Some advice from another beginner:
It's great to feel pin by pin and know exactly which pins are set and which need to be, but it's not necessary to pick the lock. There is a certain amount of pressure you use with your pick and a certain amount of torque that you can use, working your way back and forth with a rocking botion, that will pick the lock. Maybe try to stop focusing so much on the individual pins and work on your tension and pick pressure. Think about it like you're massaging the pins upwards-If the pin is already set, this gentle pressure will not overset it, but it will set pins that are not yet set.
In terms of knowing which pin you're on, I keep my thumb right up against the lock so when I insert the pick I can carefully control how far it goes in. You can push it all the way to the back, put in on the first pin, and then interpolate where the other three pins are.
Good luck!
(I'm progressing well, by the way. I can now regularly pick my Yale and my other locks open as fast as if I had the key. I just need to get some money together to order one of varjeal's sets...)
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by Uisgdlyast » 8 Mar 2005 15:34
sorry i didn't read all that but i got the gist of it.
3 pins was a big stepping point for me and i had the same problem, i had no idea what i was doing and would just move around until i heard a click. Most of the time it would feel like luck got the lock open.
I can honestly say that this is the part where practice comes in, now i feel like i know where the pins are which ones are set, not set, or overset.
Also after reading a lot more of your post it sounds like your over-thinking the situation a little, i did that in the beginning and basically go in with an empty head and try to open the lock. Once you get good with a couple of pins you can start thinking more about each state, etc.
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by ylockit » 8 Mar 2005 20:04
I too have had similar problems and figured out the method of "marking" my pick at the appropriate distances of the pins to aid the positioning of the pick. But, instead of constantly looking at the pick as I was using it, I instead inserted it all the way to the back pin and gripped the pick right at the cylinder. This gave me a slight advantage of visually aligning the pick to start, but let me concentrate on the "feel" by rolling my forefinger and thumb slightly forward to withdraw the pick as I needed to work each pin closer to the front. I found that it kept me from relying on my vision and let me concentrate on the feedback. Also, it served to give me a constant chance to feel how much "roll" of my fingertips equated to the appropriate distance between pins. In most of the deadbolts and passageway locks I have tried this distance between the pins seems pretty consistent.
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by stick » 8 Mar 2005 22:08
Speaking of Romstar, is it just me or has he not posted recently?
These are some massive posts, so I may have missed someone saying the same thing, but if you know you can pick your see-through lock, try picking it without looking at it. You'll get the pin spacings as you get a feel for locks, and it'll become easier.
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by LeaKeD » 8 Mar 2005 23:26
i been picking for about 4 years and 1 month started with a professional set ... all the advise i can say is practice practice. i can now pick any lock in my area in under 2 mins. and my first lock took 4 months and i got so frustrated i put it in the grabage. just dont quit, its well worth all the time spent.
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by MrB » 9 Mar 2005 0:53
stick wrote:Speaking of Romstar, is it just me or has he not posted recently?
Perhaps he's busy with work? Can't stay in all day posting on the Internet you know.
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by stick » 9 Mar 2005 0:58
I just did a search: turns out he is still posting, it's just that, coincidentally, I haven't read any of the threads he has posted in. 
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by Rowlock » 9 Mar 2005 4:36
Lots of excellent advice, so far.
If you've got a pickset rather than an individual pick, you might also try swapping out that deep hook for one with a taller tip. That could help you reach around the front pins to feel the awkward one at the back.
One of my biggest newbie mistakes was fixating on the idea of one pick being "the right one" and forgetting that I had a whole set to deal with different situations. Obviously you'll use one or two most of the time (medium hook and half diamond, in my case), but it's worth remembering that you've got a whole bunch of shapes at hand that are good at reaching into different places. Once you're comfortable opening this lock with a full pinset, try opening it with all the other picks you have, and try to feel what each pick's strengths and weaknesses are.
Sounds like the third pin might be on a somewhat awkward keying depth, too. See if swapping it out for a deeper pin helps you get started, then put it back again to the original keying once you feel like you're back to making steady progress.
I feel like I'm rambling a bit, but hopefully there's something helpful in there somewhere.
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