Pick Design Question

[E-Mind]

Hello,

This is my first post on this forum.

I have an idea for a pick design which I did not find anything similar to on the net - and I wonder why.

Here it goes:

1) take a blank key - grind it so that it does not push any of the pins when inserted to the keyhole.
2) dril 5 tiny holes at the locations of the pins at different length so that the closest pin to the handle is the less deep hole and the farthest pin is the deepest.
3) drill 5 tiny holes through the length of the key prependicular to the first wholes - so that you have 5 tunnels which could fit 5 wires
4) insert 5 flexible but strong spring wire into each whole (would probably have to polish and oil the tunnles so that the wire can move freely)

you insert the key into the keyhole and push each wire through it's tunnel until it lifts it's corresponding pin to it's sheerline and move on to the next pin. Add some mechanism to keep the position of the wires fixed in their tunnel (i.e. lock them after you move to the next pin) - and you could also duplicate a key easily after picking.

Would this work?

Thanks,
E-Mind

[master in training]

good idea if you managed to think it up by yourself, its been done though, it was made by the germans i think, possibly the poeple over at toool, i dont think its very widely known about, its probably restricted to the advanced forums here because i havent seen it while i've been surfing normally.

well done if you though of that all by yourself though, you should have great new ideas flying into the site in no time

welcome to the site by the way!

[n2oah]

I hate to burst your bubble, but this has been done, just as MiT has stated. The tool is called the sputnik (I think) and uses the same design as the you have stated. More props to you if you thought of it yourself!

Welcome to the forums!

[E-Mind]

Thanks I am glad to hear it is possible and had been done before - now I know that if I can't get a hold of one - I should spend the time making one myself (or with the essistance of a friend with a cnc machine...).

Yes, I did think of it by myself - but I was inspired by the tubular lockpick which I purchased (picked it up from ups today) - I thought - why not regular cylinder locks have an "automatic pick" - then I thought what would be the best way to build something like that - and be inexpensive... and this is what I came up with...

Do you know if/where I could purchase that german toool thing?

Now for the big question - I hope this won't get me flamed... but if you must, so be it, I'm a big boy - I can handle it

Why would this or anything be reserved for the "advanced forum"? To tell you the truth - this whole "advanced" thing makes little sense to me. I personally am a full-disclosure advocate - I beleive that security by obscurity brings more harm than good.

True that if you keep "advanced" information closely held - less people know about it - including people who might abuse that info.
But at the same time IMO (and I assume this because I have years of experiance in the computer security industry) - a lot of the "pros" are a year or more behind the professional criminals(/blackhats/crackers/virus writers etc...).

It seems silly and counter productive to restrict information (just look how quickly medeco would come out with a "patch" when their security is breached and published).

Assuming that if you keep a vulnerability to yourself means that the "bad guys" don't already know it is a terrible mistake IMO.

But then again - I'm just a noob.

again, thanks!

E-Mind.

[E-Mind]

I hate to burst your bubble, but this has been done, just as MiT has stated. The tool is called the sputnik (I think) and uses the same design as the you have stated. More props to you if you thought of it yourself!

Welcome to the forums!

Thanks!

no bubble to burst - I just wanted to know if this was possible or not.

E-Mind

[Chucklz]

There are several reasons for the advanced areas. One of the most important, is to not confuse newbies to the hobby. Many "absolutes" such as use light tension are not so absolute at all. The other reason for the advanced area is to keep uncomfortable information out of the google bot. For example: would you be willing to tell the world what car you drive, how to open and start it without a key, and of course how to open the lock on the door of your bank?

[digital_blue]

For example: would you be willing to tell the world what car you drive, how to open and start it without a key, and of course how to open the lock on the door of your bank?

Is there and advanced advanced section?? I never saw anything about bank doors in there!

E-Mind: Though I see your point, the site management has made the decision to draw a line in the sand somewhere. One problem with full disclosure is that it may discourage some of our valued professional locksmiths from contributing if they knew that it would be accessible to anyone who's heard of google. Another problem is that there is the obvious risk that information presented here (even in the general forums) could be used for nafarious purposes, and that is not the wish of anyone here. By restricting that info which might be of particular value or interest to the criminal element we can at least stand a foggy chance of moderating the usage of said info. One final advantage to having the advanced forum is that it acts as a encouraging element to nudge you to get active and be a contributer to this community, as that's the only way you'll gain access.

As for your Sputnik idea, congrats on the ingenuity and creativity you displayed by coming up with a very practical idea. As far as I know, the tool cannot be purchased by the public at large, but there's probably an exception somewhere. If you can find one, it'll likely set you back a buck or two. Your thoughts for making one are pretty reasonable. I would encourage you to look to jewelers to drill the required holes in the key blanks. Maybe consider some piano wire as well. Just a few hints.

And that's all I have to say about that.

db

[TOWCH]

You mean you haven't seen my "Time Lock Drill Points" topic? It's got a step by step guide with pictures on how to pop an S&G 6370 with nothing but a dremel tool, a travel alarm clock, and an egg beater in less than 5 minutes.

Anyway, I like it if for no other reason than because almost any topic in the advanced forums is worth reading, the redundant topics in the open forums get old.

[Chucklz]

Medecos are on bank locks here in the states......

[E-Mind]

There are several reasons for the advanced areas. One of the most important, is to not confuse newbies to the hobby. Many "absolutes" such as use light tension are not so absolute at all. The other reason for the advanced area is to keep uncomfortable information out of the google bot. For example: would you be willing to tell the world what car you drive, how to open and start it without a key, and of course how to open the lock on the door of your bank?

About confusing noob's - how would they get confused if it is in a seperate advanced forums which they could choose to browse or not?

About the other reason - google wise - you could set-up a robots.txt file to prevent google from "spidering" through a folder if that's what you want - but even that is un-necessary IMO - as I said in my previous post - security by obscurity brings more harm then good - after reading the advanced forums intro - I understand that all it takes is ~20 intelligent posts to weed out the leeches who mean no good - In the computer security field we call them script-kiddies.

I still stand by my opinion that full-disclosure is much better for the community at large due to the fact that people open up more and are more willing to share ideas. What's more secure in your opinion - linux or windows? I know that windows gets exploited more often and that fixing vulnerabilities in an open-source program is much easier and much quicker due to the large public support.

The question of wether I'd be willing to tell everyone what car I'm driving and how to pick it - well... If everything was public knowlage - yes, I would not mind - because I would know that some smart kid out there is working on a way to fix this vulnerability and make some money in the process.
The problem though is that this same kid would never know there is a problem unless me or someone else makes these vulnerability details known.

There would ofcourse be a curve where the public would be vulnerable and scared - but exactly this is what would bring smart people to start thinking of how to solve the problem - then there be not one medeco company but many - and prices of high security locks would drop due to competition and advancements in the technology - all in all we would benefit from greater security.

You think that Microsoft would have came out with XP-SP2's stack and heap protection were it not for the large amounts of worms exploiting stack overflows and giving them bad publicity? Don't you think that you benefit by the fact that there is not a single known method yet of reliably exploiting xpsp2 heap vulnerabilities and you are safe for now from such worms? I think we benefit from full disclosure in the computer security industry regardless if microsoft is for or against it - and I am sure if Bill had a say on this issue, he would have opposed full disclosure. Luckily he does not.

My main point remains un-answered - and it is - you need to assume that the bad guys know what they are doing and having the interest for security be driven by the community is better than keeping the community sleeping "good" at night having a false sense of security.

My ::2c


p.s. I am feeling that I am crossing some lines here, so please let me know if this post is within this board's rules (which I have not read yet, I admit)


Thanks,
E-Mind

[Chrispy]

Even if someone came up with a solution/patch/magic fix to a security problem or exploited feature, someone else would just find a way around it. It's human nature. Some things may be pick proof, but everything can be bypassed.

[Ezer]

After you're done reading the rules, feel free to read one of the many other similar threads to this one. You just need to read one. They all end the same.

About confusing noob's - how would they get confused if it is in a seperate advanced forums which they could choose to browse or not?

Who are these "noob's" with the wisdom not to stray into subjects too advanced for them? Newbs and advanced information go together like bugs and those electrocuting lights people hang in their back yards. "It won't hurt anything just to take a look."

[digital_blue]

Yeah, what Ezer said.

E-Mind, there's no rule against asking questions that challenge the rules. The truth of the matter tho is that the debate has been held many times and at the end of the day, the debate doesn't really matter all that much, cause the rules are what they are. They are there for a reason. I can appreciate that you don't agree with the philosophy behind them. In principle, I think most of us agree with you when it comes to the sharing of information, but the problem that we face is that the lock manufacturing world is not an open source community where fixes can be doled out by a 15 year old in his basement with widespread implementation during commercial breaks on The Simpsons.

db

[zekeo]

E-mind--I understand your perspective, and have the same philosophy about open-source information. However, I've learned by spending time in this community that the people that are sharing information are doing so extremely generously. Try going to your local locksmith and asking his quick and easy methods of bypass. As hobbyists, we should be grateful that the people on this site make the information available that they do. And, with enough patience we might even evetually get accepted into the advanced forums

[E-Mind]

After you're done reading the rules, feel free to read one of the many other similar threads to this one. You just need to read one. They all end the same.

About confusing noob's - how would they get confused if it is in a seperate advanced forums which they could choose to browse or not?

Who are these "noob's" with the wisdom not to stray into subjects too advanced for them? Newbs and advanced information go together like bugs and those electrocuting lights people hang in their back yards. "It won't hurt anything just to take a look."

You are right - but then again, people learn to swim better when they don't have a life vest and are in deep watters - or they drown and we don't hear about them. I think the people who are made for it - would stick around even if they get a bit burnt by chewing more they could bite once in a while - and having that knowlage available to look at - knowing that one day they might get to the position were they could put it to use - I think is an incentive.

I guess the reason of me bringing up this issue was that before I posted my question (and before registering), I happened to read a post about how a certain forum was banning users of this forum and that they kept info to themselfs - then after trying to log into the advanced forums and see what's there - I see that the same (or similar) logic that the other private, paid group has - applies here as well to some degree.

In any case - I know that I'm not going to change the rules here and this was an interesting introduction to this board for me.
I just hope the the next generation of lockpickers would be more open to share than the old folks - eventually we as a society would benefit.

but the problem that we face is that the lock manufacturing world is not an open source community where fixes can be doled out by a 15 year old in his basement with widespread implementation during commercial breaks on The Simpsons.

I hope this would change as people's attitude towards open-source changes.

However, I've learned by spending time in this community that the people that are sharing information are doing so extremely generously.

I agree and the proof for that is right here - this site.
Although I guess what I wanted to do is try and step it up to the next level - I guess it is too early.

Try going to your local locksmith and asking his quick and easy methods of bypass. As hobbyists, we should be grateful that the people on this site make the information available that they do. And, with enough patience we might even evetually get accepted into the advanced forums

I hope that the local locksmith would eventually be someone that was trained in an "open-source" community and therefore willing to share his knowlage with everyone else.

If you ask me about cracking software protection or about hacking into a system - I can always be of assistence and I will never hold back information - even though that is my living - why? because I know that by teaching, I learn - and what really matters is the experience - in the computer security world - very little is hidden from the public as far as technology goes (0day exploits - sure - but not the knowlage to make one). And guess what - the security is getting better every day - at a fast pace - unlike IMO the physical security world which only advances when picking tricks are made public. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks,
E-Mind