Key Bumping

[vector40]

Jimmie, if you're tapping it in a full cut, how do you apply the torque? Seems like it'd be hard to hold the key if you're smacking it a quarter inch forward.

[E-Mind]

I'm wondering about medeco and bumping...
If medeco has 6 pins and each pin can be at 6 different angles - there are "only" 6^6 == 46,656 possible angles combinations.

So if you make that many bump keys - one for every possible angle - and considering it takes 3 seconds to bump each key - on avarage - it would take you less than one full day to bump a medeco - is that right?

I wonder if anybody tried this before - I am sure you can get tired very quickly having to change keys and bump them once in every 3 seconds for a whole day straight - could be quite a challange...

[E-Mind]

For the minimal movement method - Do you need to remove 0.25mm off both the sholder AND tip of the key, or 0.125mm from each so together it is 0.25mm?

[n2oah]

I don't really understand bumpkeys. I would like to try to make some with a file, but I'm not sure how to.

[E-Mind]

not having much luck bumping a schlage... how much tourqe should I put on the key and what's the ideal weight of the hammer that I need to snap the key with? I tried with the handle of a screwdriver and with a rubber hammer, neither worked.

I do have a gap between the shoulder and the keyway when the buttom pins are touching the low part of the cuts and it does go in fully to get pushed back by the lock's spring. I did not file the key myself, it is machine cut.

btw - to make the key I used a longer 6 pin schlage bump key as the original (did not modify the shoulder/tip on it yet) as the original and copied it onto a 5 pin blank - the cuts look as being in the right positions.

Any advice?

[cracksman]

Vector40 wrote:

Jimmie, if you're tapping it in a full cut, how do you apply the torque? Seems like it'd be hard to hold the key if you're smacking it a quarter inch forward.

If my understanding is correct, and I think it is, the key should actually be fully inserted before bumping. In this case all pins are sitting in their gulley’s at the nines. A bump of a 1/10 of an inch should be more than enough to shoot those pins skyward. Check on Toools sight for a great video. As for the Medeco, one bump key should in theory suffice. E-mind, your going to have to cut the shoulder of the key, and probably the length, the key should actually fit in as if it were the correct key before bumping.

p.s. this is my limited experience so far, I'm also working with a dimple lock at the moment so my experience might be different.

*technically I don't think bumping should be considered as part of any locksport, I do agree it takes skill and practice, but I think it goes beyond the "spirit" of the sport. At the same time it is a great technique for a locksmith in a rush

[E-Mind]

read my post - I did cut the shoulder of the key and it has a gap similar to the one shown on toool's pdf.

any ideas?

[E-Mind]

I guess I confused you a bit when I said I did not file the key myself and that it is machine cut - I had it machine cut - then - I filed the shoulder and tip off to create said gap... sorry for the confusion.

it looks so simple in the movie

[cracksman]

Sorry E-mind, my bad, I did skim a bit My knowledge is quite limited at this point. I would like to say that the guy that is bumping the locks in the video is a professional locksmith. While, in his opinion, bumping is painfully easy, so is a 3 pin padlock to you and me. Looking at the problem simply, here is what I can see (sorry this is going to sound very simplistic, in action I am well aware it is not);

-The bump will simultaneously send all top pins (billiard affect) against your top springs, temporarily, providing a virtually empty shear line, at this point tension is applied and the locks open. This reaction would seem to me to last well under a second, therefore, a good deal of practice may be involved. I would not be surprised if a professional could be able to teach the basics, however, if it was one on one, in a matter of minutes.

-If the bump is even slightly too hard, your bottom pins could go past the shear line and your shot. What I mean by too hard is more of an excessive upward movement, I think the goal of the bump is to transfer the energy from the bottom pins directly to the top in a quick snap, same as a snap-gun, just more efficient.

-The actual technique should be rather subtle, I don't think the funny looking hammers are at all an accident, you are simply transferring energy from the bottom to the top pins and creating an opportunity, as you know the spring tension is going to be minimal.

p.s. I don't know if this is at all helpful, when I learn more about this I'll post it. I'm not sure whether specifics should be posted in the advance forums, that is up to the mods.

*Again, I would like to state that this is more, by-passing then lockpicking and I would not imagine that it would be included in a locksport.

[E-Mind]

I understood the concept and physics of how this works by watching the movie and reading the pdf - but they did not have schlage there - and I have not heared from anyone that they were able to bump schlage - although it should be easy like all the rest (not that I got anything bumped open yet).

The fraction of the second that the pins are above the shear line should not matter due to the fact that with the minimal movement technuiqe you apply the same tourque the entire time - although in the movie they didn't seem to use the minimal movement technuiqe which the pdf recommends, but rather they seem to pull back the key a pin, and then tap it and use tourque a fraction of a second later.

correct me if I'm wrong - or better yet, if someone was able to bump a schlage, please post

[vector40]

If you read Jimmie and my previous posts, cracks, I was asking about the other method of bumping, which involves withdrawing the key a full "click" and tapping it back in.

Not to be difficult, but have you ever done this? I'd rather people didn't circulate advice when they weren't themselves sure what they're doing.

[E-Mind]

a locksmith told me that bumping can be prevented by having stronger spings above the upper pins - is that true?

[Chrispy]

a locksmith told me that bumping can be prevented by having stronger spings above the upper pins - is that true?

It would stand to reason. Stronger springs equals more resistance which means harder bumps, and quicker speeds that the pins would be moving at.

[Jimmie]

it is true you can prevent bumping by using special hard spings (the ones coming from a lighter for ex) but an anti bumping lock already exists named M&C lock

here a bump key "trapped" in an M&C lock

http://www.toool.nl/m_en_c.jpg

in fact the one cut removal technique works on some locks you cannot bump with the minimal movement technique (Ex: Abus pin locks)

to prepare your bump key you have to remove some metal from the shoulder AND from the tip of your bump key (you need to test before you find the length of metal you have to file out to find the one which works the best for you)

if for ex the tip of the bump key hits the "actuator" ... all the energy will be transferrred there and the lock will not pop opened

remember ... you have two angles for the pin tips (90° and 110°) ... it depends of the lock brands ... some others don't have a V pin tip but a rounded pin so ... cut your bump key with the right angle cuts !!

in another way .... even the name of the bump key aka "999" suggest you cut your bump key to 9 cut postion it is not always true ... you must have the tip of the pins in contact with the bump key during the small inward movement

the technique has to be adapted for each kind of lock

you don't strike a dimple lock bump key like a simple pin lockbump key in the same way ... sometimes you need to have a VERY slight tension and sometimes you need to give tension just after have striked the bump key

as all "picking" technique ... practice ! practice ! practice !

my two cents !! happy bumping !!

Jimmie

[E-Mind]

Thanks for tha valuable information.

I had a schlage key cut to all #9 depths - how much should I remove from the shoulder and how much from the tip for it to work on schlage?

Since in the US - most use, kwikset and schlage, I am wondering why nobody has published info about a schlage bump key...