Strange euro cyl problem

[Paul AAA]

A locksmith friend of mine phoned me today whilst on a warrant run with a strange problem wanting advice. He had to open a euro on upvc door.
He bumped it 5 times with a1 5 pin bump key. turning the plug without the cam engaging the mech.

I told him to use 6 pin key, try engaging the cam by pushing a pick down the plug to trick the cylinder into thinking theres a key there. (No it wasn't a key and thumb with it's spring action.) and also check for a key in the back of the lock (mirror through the letter box). Same problem tho.........

Then later he phones me back, just as a off chance he bumped it then used a plug spinner and it opened! This makes no since at all. Just coz he spun the plug round quick shoudn't hav opened it. Just for fun, he tried it again and it worked again!!!! Any ideas????????????? [/quote]

[Shrub]

Was it a geared euro cylinder?

[Paul AAA]

Do u mean 'geared' as in a cylinder that instead of an offset cam, has a cog in it's place with about 10 teeth and works a geared mech?

[Shrub]

Yes,

[lunchb0x]

some of these cylinders have a small lug in them, the tip of the key has to push it which will engage it to turn the cam. so if the tip of the key is cut down and the cam was not in the right place it would not work
this possably could of been the problem

[globallockytoo]

I find it hard to believe this guy was a locksmith, considering he didnt know the answer to this simple problem.

[fusion]

some of these cylinders have a small lug in them, the tip of the key has to push it which will engage it to turn the cam. so if the tip of the key is cut down and the cam was not in the right place it would not work
this possably could of been the problem

I agree. I was picking one of my locks that I didn't know had the lug in the back. I picked to the shear line fine, but it didn't want to open. A few rakes and pop, open. Thing is, I accidently hit the lug when raking, which let the tension wrench turn. Now I have a longer tension wrench for these and they open in seconds.

What he probably did was bump it, but couldnt turn it, and the spinner accidently hit the lug a let it turn...

Could have possibly been something else, this is just my experience.

[unjust]

if i understand there is a pin/lug in the back of the keyway that locks the cylinder w/o pressure on it.

the bump opened the lock, but because of the lug was unable to open the lock. so when a key shaped plug spinner was inserted it depressed the lug opening the lock?

if so what's this about gears?

[Paul AAA]

Guys... You've got this lug thing all wrong.

All euro and oval cylinders have a set of combined rotating pins in them, they are in the middle of the cam. What these pins do is select which side of the cylinder is going to connect to the cam. i.e which plug. Exceptions include half cylinders (because there is only one plug) and cylinders with thumb turns.

When the key is inserted into the plug, it sets up the shear line and also selects that side to engage the cam and disenages the other plug, both plugs are never connected at the same time.

These pins have NOTHING to do with stopping the plug from being turned
No matter if you hit the pins or not, that won'nt stop you from picking the lock. It means that you might spend all that time picking the lock and that times goes to waste coz the plug turns without the cam and the mech that it's in does not open.

So very first thing to do is check what ur dealing with.

OK. THUMB TURNS..... key on the outside and thumb turn on the inside.

They are spring loaded inside, the thumb turn is always connected to the cam no matter what. Pick the cylinder as normal and well done.. you've just wasted your time doing so. The pins in the cam must first be pressed in, then the key pins must be made to meet the shear line. This is where bump keys are perfect. coz they do this at the same time. I use them alot for fast warrant work.

How to check...

Two ways 1 Simply use a mirror through the letter box
2 Use a small ended pick or the length of tension wrench that you would normaly hold to simply push down the centre of the plug, push it lightly and feel for the spring pushing the wrench back out (about 4 mm of movment)

Finally... This cylinder is mostly likely just a standard off set cam not a geared one. What was you thinking this could be a reason for? Could you possibly expect this from one coz I carn't see how?

[Shrub]

I only asked about the geared mechs because i didnt understand your first explanation, i thought you meant the lock had been picked and turned but then a flipper used before it finally unlocked, i assume this wasnt the case now,

There arent pins in the cam, its one pin used as a axle and two cams inside but im sure you know that and just struggled to explain it,

Use bum keys and expect to mess the locks up at some point, i dont use them and if someone used them on my door to gain entry i would ask for a new lock afterwads, i know a lot are starting to use them, starting to pay the ludricus prices being charged for them and starting to sing their praises on warrent runs but to me they are unprofessional,
I do however see their use for locks such as the MTL's which can be a right pain to pick at times especially in the rain at night but luckily i dont come across many,

[unjust]

so i get the lug thing now, but i'm still lost on the gears, adn why bumping didn't work but the spinner did.

[Shrub]

Instead of a cam in the middle of the lock some locks have a cog wheel in the middle which interacts with the strip to lock the door,

[Bump]

Just by offchance could it have been a double throw mech? I've had one or two of these when its necessary to pick the cylinder twice in order to withdraw the deadbolt, with hindesight I've thought that spinning them with a plug spinner might have saved me a second pick. Unfortunately you dont know that until its too late.

[toomush2drink]

As far as im aware only multilock use the cog system.There are mechs with a cog built into the mech but a normal euro turns it.

[unjust]

thanks.

still though why wouldn't the bump key open that?