Old Herring-Hall-Marvin safe - typical direction & numbers?

[JohnKoz]

Yes, it sure seems we are on the same page. I follow what you're saying and yes, the dial and drive cam '"turns as it does", so your model works to simulate operation.

Great thank you, ok, so do you think it matters the placement of the connecting posts (bolts in my case)? For convenience I used 2 bolts on the inner wheels, instead of 1 all the way through. Because it was easier.
But I gambled that it doesn't matter where the wheels touch each other, is that true?

[GWiens2001]

Yes, it matters. And those “posts” are properly called a fly

Gordon

[GWiens2001]

To learn a bit of the terminology, here is a post you may find helpful

Gordon

[L4R3L2]

Agreed, where can I get one?

I should explain. Obtaining a Yale HE lock would be expensive and difficult. What I meant was it would be good to get a basic Sergeant and Greenleaf 6730 just to help see the wheel action. But, of course you are already pretty good at visualizing what's going on.

With an auto dialer dialing every combination at given intervals, the width of the flies shouldn't matter unless the combination was set in the opposite direction. Your auto dialer will dial right through the areas that overlap, so that's not really a concern. But, if you come at the combination from the opposite direction, if two consecutive numbers are close together the fly could push the other wheel(s) out of alignment as it comes around.

[JohnKoz]

Thanks L4R3L2.

Thinking about the flies, I'm less concerned about the thickness of my bolts (certainly for the reasons you mentioned) but I was more concerned that I had 2 flies per wheel (one on either side).
But thinking about each wheel, the fly does not protrude through the wheel to both sides, it is only on 1 side. So each fly could be in a different orientation on each wheel (correct?)

So I think my model is still ok from that standpoint.

-John

[x_MJA_x]

Hi all,

I was excited to find this thread as I'm in a similar boat with a nearly identical safe and lock setup!

John, were you able to get a working combination with your awesome autodialer (or any other lucky guesses)?

I don't mean to hijack the thread, so let me know if this would be better as a separate post, but I figured since we were discussing the same lock type that it might fit logically here. Are these very difficult locks to manipulate open? I've been reading several posts, papers, and the National Locksmith Guide to Manipulation by Bob Sieveking, but I'm not able to really feel or hear much around the flies getting picked up. I can feel them if I park the wheels and then kind of tap the dial into them at the parked number, then come around and pickup another which sounds a little more robust, but before I saw this post I couldn't discern whether I had a 2, 3, or 4 wheel lock. Similarly, I figured the contact area was between 98-99 based on pulling the handle and finding where it felt like the fence dropped in a bit, which makes sense with the zero-to-open setup.

I guess my real question is, is this something I can keep working at and figure out or do I need to make John an offer to rent/buy his autodialer setup or have this thing drilled if I ever want to use it again?

I also tried a bunch of simple pattern combinations and the "commonly retired safe" combinations offered in the thread earlier - which were great suggestions.

[MartinHewitt]

Hi,
I don't know this lock by experience, but I don't see anything which should make manipulation very difficult. But because the handle must be turned to feel the contact points a constant force there might be beneficial. Of course real life is often more difficult than lab conditions, so there might be dried grease and bent or loose parts which make manipulation more difficult. Some people have opened their safes by manipulation without knowing about manipulation before. You will need to be persistent. That will be easier if you see the manipulation itself as fun. You should ask yourself if you are such a person. If you don't think so, then it is better to look for an alternative. One is to borrow or build a special autodialer. Second is to get a safe tech to drill it open for you.

[JohnKoz]

Hi all,

I was excited to find this thread as I'm in a similar boat with a nearly identical safe and lock setup!

John, were you able to get a working combination with your awesome autodialer (or any other lucky guesses)?

I don't mean to hijack the thread, so let me know if this would be better as a separate post, but I figured since we were discussing the same lock type that it might fit logically here. Are these very difficult locks to manipulate open? I've been reading several posts, papers, and the National Locksmith Guide to Manipulation by Bob Sieveking, but I'm not able to really feel or hear much around the flies getting picked up. I can feel them if I park the wheels and then kind of tap the dial into them at the parked number, then come around and pickup another which sounds a little more robust, but before I saw this post I couldn't discern whether I had a 2, 3, or 4 wheel lock. Similarly, I figured the contact area was between 98-99 based on pulling the handle and finding where it felt like the fence dropped in a bit, which makes sense with the zero-to-open setup.

I guess my real question is, is this something I can keep working at and figure out or do I need to make John an offer to rent/buy his autodialer setup or have this thing drilled if I ever want to use it again?

I also tried a bunch of simple pattern combinations and the "commonly retired safe" combinations offered in the thread earlier - which were great suggestions.

Hi MJA, sorry for the delay in responding, happy to see our mutual interest in cracking this safe.

I haven't given up, though I put my project on the back burner for a bit this year, but not before I also created a mini-cracker for padlocks.


I was reworking my algorythm to be more efficient, given the proper function of the wheels (i.e. nothing bent, dried grease, rust, etc.) it should be possible to just "rewind" the outer wheels without starting from the begining. I was perfecting this but stopped before I finally set it in motion.

Hope to pick it up soon, but until then, happy to help you if you choose to tackle this.
Not sure about "renting" an autodialer, i think they come with a locksmith.
Besides, if you don't build one you won't get the satisfaction. For me it wasn't about getting the safe open, it was more about me doing it.

-John