Interesting Design - Extremely Difficult to Pick - Advices

[LittlePeaceful]

Hi,

thanks again for the interesting comments.

@kehveli:
the tolerances/machining are not perfect, so MAYBE it's possible to insert a thin wire in between pin and plug, but due to the low profile dimple keyway I guess it would be extremely difficult to stick it into the pinholes, especially in the back, whithout some dedicated tool.

@SFGOON:
I'd be curious about the possible combinations too. Looking at the pinning of mine I think there are almost none. I had a friend looking in LSS, he found nothing similar. All the sidebars on there seem to be belveled.

@GateTwelve:
I find your experience with the Medeco sidebar interesting and I tried to apply it, but the problem is that I can't get more than one pin binding. .
I guess the problem is due to the fact that the sidebar is different from the Medeco one (at least from the original Medeco drawing deposited at the U.S. Patent 4,328,690 - see image):



By what I can understand from the drawing:

Medeco sidebar:
- is belveled on the plug side;
- is pushed toward the plug by the springs;
- is pushed in by the interaction between the plug (belveled too) and the sidebar itself when torque is applied;

This sidebar:
- is flat on the plug side;
- is pushed toward the pins by the springs;
- is kept out by the pins;
- the plug is flat;
- in case of interaction with the shell is just catched where it is;

the result is that I can't apply torque. Because torque is NOT pushing the sidebar towards the pins, but just keeping it were it is (into the plug).

@kehveli:
I agree. The sidebar spring itself is not enough to oppose the pin ones (othervise the lock would have a normally unlocked or partially locked state), this is true even removing all the pins but two (two springs towards two springs).

@digital_blue:
I agree with the need of something custom made, maybe custom profile picks or, more probably, a tool (as already discussed with kehveli).


Some points I were not clear about or I forgot to mention in my previous posts:
1. The byke type is just a U lock "kriptonite"-like;
2. The producer is (stamped on the envelope) offering 100'000 RMB (roughly 10'000 Euros) to the first guy capable to open it on a regular basis. I don't kow if some ingenious Chinese has already got them, that's a big amount of money here.
3. I still haven't picked it with two pins.
4. With all the pins mounted I can, pushing it up with a light pressure and at the same time locking the sidebar applying torque, get one binding, no more.
5. I'm still looking for some suitable material for an impressioning try.

Last comment. Were we are - two ways:

A. FIRST align all the pins to the right level, THEN apply torque (as happens using the key)
-> requires a tool and a procedure that could be the one adviced by kehveli in his first post.

B. PUSH the sidebar in, THEN pick normally, LAST apply torque
-> no non-destructive way.

Thanks,
LP

[TOWCH]

Is there any reason why foil impressioning won't work?

[GateTwelve]

I understand the differences of your lock to the medeco, but the idea of getting the sidebar at an angle not parallel to the plug still remains the same. It doens't matter if it's the tension forcing the sidebar in, or the spings - the concept is still the same. You just won't be using any torque to do it, as you would iwth a medeco. But if you can't get more than one pin to set at a time, then my idea is kind of out the window.

[digital_blue]

Is there any reason why foil impressioning won't work?

I just can't see foil impressioning working here. If you imagine what is happening with foil impressioning it might be clearer. With a typical dimple lock you still have a top and bottom pin. The springs apply pressure on the pins and push them into the foil only until the stack reaches the shear line, where the pins bind and the spring no longer has effect. This is how it manages to get all the right depths into the foil.

Now, with this lock, there is no shear line. The springs would all have equal force the entire time, so it would just push the dimples into the foil, but nothing would cause the pins to stop pushing at the correct place. The only exception would be if the sidebar actually slipped partly into the groove on a given pin and managed to get it to stay there. I suppose then the pin sould stop pushing. I suppose it could maybe work in theory, but I doubt it would actually work in practice.

db

[hsia]

[digital_blue]

That was the best dead thread resurrection I've ever seen!

This thread has actually come to mind a few times, because I had communicated with LittlePeaceful a bit about buying one of these locks from him, and then he never came back. Wonder where that guy went. I wanted one of these.

db

[wtf|pickproof?]

never seen that one before.

Some kind of lifter pick comes to mind.
Perhaps the turbulence of a compressed air could make all pins move up and down at the same time, thereby randomly bruteforcing the lock. (I don't really believe in this method, but maybe somebody finds inspiration in it)

If it doens't have to be NDE the pins might be susceptible to breaking, e.g. by tearing them out with a pice of steel sheet metall which has a hole in it.

I want one of those too!

[workstation]

I usually lurk and don't post, but I really like the sound of this lock and I've only just seen this topic. Hence some thoughts:

1)

You can't possibly bump this lock, as the pins are one-piece. (Unless you randomly end up with the pins in the right position when you turn the plug.) You might as well try to bump a lever-tumbler lock.

2)

Potentially, this type of lock could be used for almost anything. The whole mechanism is in the plug! This is a highly desirable property held by very few locks.

Bilocks are self-contained in this way, as are wafer-tumbler locks, but obviously there's a big gap in the market between the former quality and the latter junk. This type of lock could easily fill it. (I believe there are also some Medeco cam locks etc with this property, but it's a bit of an afterthought in their case.)

I notice, however, that you don't have to drill much of a hole to push the sidebar in manually. The lock might then almost pick itself! In any case, it would rake open easily enough. This is potentially the design's Achilles' heel, I think, tolerable though it may be in bicycle locks.

3) There can't be many differs. The lock illustrated only seems to have two possibilities for each of the six pins. Two to the six is 64.

Maybe there are actually more than two possibilities per pin, but there just happen to be no examples of the others in this particular lock. This seems pretty unlikely.

It's equally possible that I'm wrong about the picture. It's a bit blurry!

Bilock incidentally manages four possibilities per pin, which if possible with this design would make a big difference, since four to the six is 4096.

4)

The spring-loaded sidebar is very clever. The principle that you can't put more than a certain force on the tumblers with the component that reads their position is brilliant; it's analogous to the idea of a lever-tumbler lock anti-pressure device. These devices make picking almost impossibly, but have sadly fallen out of fashion, so here are some examples:

http://www.antique-locks.com/chatwoodchange.htm - A nineteenth century version.

http://locks.ru/win/product/technology08.shtm - What I think is a recent example, though I don't read Russian. Use a web translator!


5)

The fact that you can set one pin is a little disappointing, and shows that the idea hasn't been fully thought through or tested.

If you can set one pin, it should be possible to decode the lock by setting one pin, then releasing it after noting its correct position and repeating for each other pin. You would then be able to make a key easily.

That said, I think it would be easy to counter such attacks by re-designing the lock so that the sidebar (along perhaps with the cut in the housing) has a dovetail - a reverse bevel - so that turning the plug actively pulls on the sidebar, rather than jamming it in place.

6)

Even if one of these locks were modified as above, it would still be decodable to a determined person, since each pin would behave slightly abnormally when at the right height.

For example, you could make a device that lifts each pin in turn, and records the force against the displacement. If you plotted a graph, I bet there would be a tell-tale shape at the right point.

Pretty high-tech stuff needed, though!

7)

Decoding with a fine wire might work with this lock, but wouldn't if the pins and holes were shaped properly. The necessary countermeasures are all known.