Something you should know (bump-keys)

by **devildog** » 21 Oct 2005 17:38

Woah! 2mm is FOUR times as much as 0.5mm, and it might not sound like a big difference due to the very small units being used, but it really is. Ok, we definately need to get some feedback from the people who are bumping successfully here. I thought it was around 0.5mm (from the TOOOL video and zeke's paper) and now I'm hearing 2mm.

You know, I really was wondering if maybe part of the reason I wasn't having any luck bumping was because I was only taking off around 0.5mm, and that might not be enough for American locks with lower tolerances and probably wider spacing between the pins; 0.5mm came from Europeans working with high tolerance quality Euro profile locks, not Schlage and Kwikset POS's (Schlage isn't that bad, but anyway). So maybe a bit more than 0.5mm is better for us Yankees, then? Like 1.5-2.0mm, perhaps?

Maybe it needs to be adjusted according to the quality, and therefore tolerances, of the lock? Like, a Master or Kwikset might need 2-2.5mm whereas a Schlage deadbolt/mortise or American padlock might get 1.5-2.0mm, maybe? And then Sargents, Corbin-Russwins, Bests, etc. would get more like 0.75-1.0mm, with higher quality ones along with the Euros rating the previously noted 0.5mm?

People who are bumping locks open successfully and consistently, PLEASE give us some feedback so those of us that aren't (like, um...well...ME!! :oops:

) can figure out what's going wrong. Maybe something like: how much are you taking off the shoulder for which locks; how deep are you making the cuts--9, 9.5, or 10; what kind of hammer; how hard are you hitting it; tension before and during, or only after the strike; how much tension; what are you using to apply tension; ETC.??

Sorry if I seem to be going a little psycho about this bumping thing, but I've been at it rather persistantly for the past two weeks and haven't a lick of success, so I'm getting a weeeeeee bit frustrated :roll:

by **Mad Mick** » 21 Oct 2005 18:01

digital_blue wrote:I disagree that there's no such thing as taking off too much. If you take off too much the key will not kick back into position automatically. Seems to me about a 16th of an inch is the right amount, though someone more skilled at this technique than I might jump in here.

db

vector40 wrote:No, I concur. A couple of mil seems about right.

Hmm, to be perfectly clear here, db suggests a 16th of an inch and Vec suggests a couple of mil. They are both roughly the same to within a half-millimetre but for clarity, can we please use standard measurement terms also. This is helpful for those members who aren't familiar with units of measurement and just want to create a working key. Both sides of the pond use different units, and it would be helpful for those users to have figures that they can input into a conversion tool.

X.XXX"/inches, or X.XXXmm is more universally acceptable.

Not being nit-picky here, just trying to make things a bit easier on those who are likely to be asking questions.

HTH.

by **vector40** » 21 Oct 2005 18:52

Dear me. I'm not very bright.

I just went and actually measured the amount (according to the space outside the lock when it's actually inserted -- no other measure seems meaningful) and it's really closer to 1mm, give or take a hair.

I think the first one I tried was more like 2mm but that one had little success.

On the other hand, I haven't really done enough experimenting to figure out if this is the BEST amount -- I just know that it pretty much does work on the practice locks I have. I also can't do any fiddling now, because neither of these locks bump very well anymore :oops:

Dented the suckers...

I agree that it may very well be a factor of the specific lock. However, I also feel that except in extreme circumstances, you can probably manage the same key with the same filing in just about any lock it'll fit in... it just may take more or less time.

by **devildog** » 21 Oct 2005 19:14

Well, I'm a Yank and I'll be the first one right now to say that the metric system is something that we've totally missed the boat on, and I'm really irritated that we still use the bloody english system, so lets keep it metric (because that's what system the entire REST of the world uses :roll:

) and stick with millimeters, agreed?

by **digital_blue** » 21 Oct 2005 19:45

I'd walk a mile outta my way to use the metric system.

db

by **Mad Mick** » 21 Oct 2005 20:25

It's not a case of sticking with one system, or another. Both systems are universally accepted units of measurement, and are applicable in differing regions. Because these units are normally expressed in a certain format, the many conversion programs available, be they online or on Palm Pilot etc., expect the user to input the value of the unfamiliar system, then select the familiar system as the result.
If we can get into the habit of either referring to measurements in Metric units:
X.XXXmm

or imperial units:
X.XXXinch/"

then these figures can easily be entered into a conversion utlilty and used as required by the end user.

Note.
Fractions of an inch can be confusing to some, especially when using fractions above 1/10th. Some of us can easily convert these to decimal figures, but let's not make things harder than they need to be. If you can offer both figures, eg 1/8"=0.125"/inch, by all means do so. Some of the future 'older' members may have seldom used the metric system.

by **Mad Mick** » 21 Oct 2005 20:33

digital_blue wrote:I'd walk a mile outta my way to use the metric system.

db

*yawns*, *stretches*, *yawns again* (Twice) :lol:

by **vector40** » 21 Oct 2005 20:46

I like both systems, but with these sizes millimeters just makes the most sense

by **devildog** » 21 Oct 2005 21:21

Say, sorta off topic but can someone recommend some good calipers for under $100? Can you get some good digital ones in that price range?

by **digital_blue** » 21 Oct 2005 21:26

There are loads on ebay.

db

by **devildog** » 21 Oct 2005 21:35

No, not WHERE, you nitwit

, I meant recommend a brand and/or model. EBay is the first place I'd look IF I knew what I was looking for

by **Gordon Airporte** » 21 Oct 2005 21:41

I've heard good things about these (US$35) digital calipers:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... at=1,43513
Says they're accurate to .001", even though it displays in .0005".
The $125 Starrett dial caliper claims the same 1/1000th accuracy, and it's a Starrett - so if you're a machinist you can be really sure. Of course, it can't convert between metric and imperial at the press of a button like the digital ones, and you'd have to squint at it pretty hard to read thousandths.

by **digital_blue** » 21 Oct 2005 22:01

Well la-tee-da devildog. :roll:

Anyway, mine are analog, but they're pretty nice none the less.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v647/digital_blue/mycaliper.jpg

db

by **vector40** » 21 Oct 2005 22:31

Use a ruler -.-

by **treboR** » 21 Oct 2005 22:50

Volkov wrote:How little do you take of the shoulder and the tip, i think that is my problem?

I got two more perfect 99999 keys made for me and both worked with very little success rates...like 1 in 50 hits or something, maybe worse...

Man, there's something im just not doing right...Grr...

- Volkov

Your problem is more likely the way you are hitting the key. I have bump keys that have 1mm off of the shoulder, .5mm, and even almost 2 mm, they all worked great once I got my swinging motion down. It is kind of like a snapping motion(like a whip). I have even bumped a couple of locks with just my hand. Once you get the motion down you can bump open a lock with just about anything with some weight behind it. :wink:

Here are some bumping vids

http://hosted.filefront.com/rboehme/1406343

Also the keys work better the more you use them.

Something you should know (bump-keys)

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