Legality of Picks in Australia

[disko]

I recently asked a criminal lawyer and security trainer I know if there was legislation regarding the possession and or use of lockpicking equipment in Australia. He told me, without reference to any acts, that they were a controlled import, and that possesssion of them, at least in Victoria, was restricted.

I've been digging through legislation in Victoria and all I have been able to find thus far is s91 of the Crimes Act (Vic) 1958 which is the offence of 'going equipped to steal'. However, it all becomes a bit convoluted with regard to intent.

"(3) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, proof that he had with him any article made or adapted for use in committing a burglary, theft or cheat shall be evidence that he had it with him for such use."

So does that mean that any lockpick that I take outside my house shall be presumed to be for use in a burglary?

[illusion]

there is a threadabout legality here: http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=863

I haven't checked it yet, but it's likely to be helpful

[disko]

Have already looked through that link, Victorian legislation isn't mentioned.

Well I've now been through the Customs (Prohibited Imports) Act and Regulations (Cth) and I can't see anything about them being prohibited.

You can only have supply your services for a fee under the Private Security Act (Vic) 2004 if you are registered, but I'm not interested in making money out of it.

[ndgreen]

So does that mean that any lockpick that I take outside my house shall be presumed to be for use in a burglary?

Basically yes. It is called 'presumption', and the onus is then on YOU, the defendant, to convince a court that you were not carrying the item for an evil, dastardly, nefarious theft.

If you tell us what state you are in, perhaps we can be more specific.

With regards to importing picks, the relevant law is the Customs Prohibited Imports regulations, which does not mention 'housebreaking' implements. You could be arrested as soon as you took possession of them though.

[digital_blue]

So does that mean that any lockpick that I take outside my house shall be presumed to be for use in a burglary?

Well, I'm not a lawyer, so take this for what it's worth. But I don't see how the above could be true, or every locksmith in your area would be "going equipped". There must be some provision for the legal use of lockpicking tools. It is my understanding that Australia is much like most places, where there must be some grounds upon which to base their case for "intent".

Keep in mind that this probably doesn't come up every day for your local law enforcement, so even if you are legally in the right, you may be in for a bigger headache than it's worth, so if you want to play it safe, keep the lockpick tools at home unless you need to take them somewhere.

Cheers!

db

[disko]

, I have a headache now haha

So basically, keep em at home is what we're saying here. It would be pretty hard, as far as I can tell, to prove that I was 'going equipped' if the picks are on my bedside table.

[digital_blue]

That's certainly the safest option. My hunch is that even if you were caught with them, so long as you weren't skulking around late at night in peoples yards, you'd probably be legally in the right, but the grief you're apt to be put through would be more than it was worth.

Now, having said that, best I can tell the laws there aren't much different than in my province in Canada, yet I choose to keep picks in my vehicle so they are with me at all times. It's a choice I make and a risk that I choose to take. But, I take that risk with open eyes, and since I'm not inclined to be doing things that will get me in trouble with the law (save an occasional speeding ticket) I figure I'm probably ok.

Cheers!

db

[ndgreen]

db et. al,

What you are saying is correct (i.e. Locksmiths would also be in trouble). In the strictest interpretation of the law, ANYBODY with picks (including Locksmiths), are presumed to be carrying the tools for 'bad' reasons. The Locksmith however, by displaying a security licence, is able to offer a rebuttal to the presumption.

Ordinary Joe Citizen however, is another story...

Hope this doesn't muddy the waters further!

BTW Disko, just because it isn't in the Customs legislation, doesn't make it legal to carry picks!



N.

[disko]

Never said that a lack of customs legislation made it legal to carry, I'm very aware of the distinctions between import, possession and use. Just looking at all the legal hiccups one can encounter if importing.

I wouldn't be walking around with them in my pocket, thats for sure.

[ndgreen]

Disko,

Wasn't meant as an attack, just a warning...

N.

[helix]

So does that mean that any lockpick that I take outside my house shall be presumed to be for use in a burglary?

...... I don't see how the above could be true.....

I can see it being true.

I live in Australia and if you are caught walking around with ANYTHING, the cops
can make a headache for you if they want to.

This being said, they can not accuse you of anything unless the
circumstances are BELIEVED on reasonable grounds, to be very suspicious.

Walking down the street with a baseball bat and a team uniform should not
get you into too much trouble.

A gang, walking around with the same bat, will surely get you stopped.

Here, the burden of proof lies on the cop. (Although they won't tell you that).
Most cops over here try to 'wing it' with legalities, hoping that you don't
know your rights/laws.

I AM NOT A LAWYER, COULD POSSIBLY BE WRONG BUT PRETTY SURE I'M NOT.

Walking around with a half brick will get you stopped for some 'intent to damage/burglarise' charge.

You could win this case, a half brick has many uses.

Now lockpicks on the other hand, have one use:

They open locks that you don't have a key for. On reasonable grounds,
seeing that you aren't a locksmith, one would be sort of suspicious.

KEEP YOUR PICKS AT HOME. If you DO have to walk with them, put them
in a bag with a lock on the zip. This will at least stop you from being searched.

[vector40]

I'm waiting until someone's participation in this site ends up used in their trial as evidence that they were carrying picks for legitimate reasons.

[digital_blue]

In the spirit of "better you than me", I'm kinda waiting for anyone from this site to actually be hassled for carrying picks in a situation where there really is no legitimate or obvious intent. I'd be kinda curious to see how the courts would handle it.

Now, since (to the best of my knowledge) no member here has ever been charged simply for the possession of lockpick tools, I'm inclined to feel pretty comfy carrying my picks in my vehicle. I don't however, tend to carry picks on my person just to play it safe.

helix: regarding my above comment, I still stand by my conviction that these laws would be very unenforceable in the court system. But I agree that does not mean that you could never be given a rough time by a city police officer, and maybe even have a charge slapped on you, just for the simple act of carrying picks. I just think that in the end, you'd win unless you were doing something stupid in the process. I wouldn't want to have to go through that, but I'd be prepared to if I was ever put in that situation. I am well familiar with both the wording and the spirit of the Criminal Code of Canada as it relates to lockpicking tools, and would be well up to the task of defending myself against a charge, should one ever be laid on me. Of course, I'd prefer that I never have to deal with that, but I'm not personally prepared to refrain from keeping tools at arms reach when I'm away from home.

This is, of course, a personal choice that I make, and I assume the risks associated with it. I am a strong proponent of telling our various younger members to not carry picks with them for a couple reasons.

1) Sometimes (though certainly not always) younger people lack the life experience that gives them good judgement and they are more likely to make an error in judgement and put themselves in a situation where serious trouble could result.
2) Even the sharpest cookies we have amongst our younger members can not escape the fact that they are younger, and more likely to be looked on with suspicion by authority figures.

Also, a younger member is often subject to consequences that are not legal, but negative none the less. For example, school suspension or parental punishment. I'm not subject to either of those, so the only negative consequences I could face for carrying tools are legal ones, and I feel confident enough that I am safe in that area to carry my picks.

Cheers!

db

[Chrispy]

I think that you should be fine disko. The police (in all their power) can distinguish between the negative and positive intent of lock pick possession. Just don't carry them around with you.

[skold]

I think that you should be fine disko. The police (in all their power) can distinguish between the negative and positive intent of lock pick possession. Just don't carry them around with you.

Also, not all policemen are arseholes. They may find them and aslong as you have no criminal record or have valid reason for carrying the tools, they will not worry.