raking

by **east_stingray** » 18 Dec 2005 23:38

Hi all.
Some years ago I started teaching myself how to pick, but for some reason it fell by the wayside for a while. I've taken it up again, and I have what seems to be a strange problem.
I'm using SouthOrd's jacknife pick at the moment (trying to find my other set) and I'm opening my 5-pin FirstWatch deadbolt insert ($4 at Lowes) with a lifter like there's no tomorrow. I got so bored I even started doing it left-handed (a REAL challenge!). Anyway, despite being able to use the lifter really well, I can't rake this lock open for the life of me! I tried to do it just like the tutorial and all of my manuals said, but I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'm using the snake pick on the jacknife.
I'm going to assume it's not a torque problem since I've got a good feel for this lock's torque requirement from lifting. Any advice would be helpful.

by **digital_blue** » 19 Dec 2005 0:05

Raking is a funny thing. It can be hit and miss. It could be that the shape of your rake does not mesh well with the pin configurations of your lock. If you've got extreme high/low bitting you may find the lock difficult to rake. When you find your other set, try a few different types of rakes and see if you have any luck.

db

by **webidiot2** » 19 Dec 2005 0:10

yea i have had the same problem before with raking. I had 2 kwikset deadbolts one with high low and one not so high low. I could get the one that was not high low in a matter of seconds, but could not get the high low. like db said it's hit or miss.

by **east_stingray** » 19 Dec 2005 10:24

Is there a particular kind of rake that works well with high-low combinations? I think I'm going to give up on finding my old set and purchase a new one. I see that the kit recommended in the beginners' section has a couple of picks that I'm not sure I would ever use, including some rakes I've never seen before. Maybe it would help me in my journey to master locksmith if one of you would be willing to identify each of those tools and what it's most commonly used for. I know there's a thread that discusses this, but I read it and I'm still feeling unfulfilled.

That beginner's set is here

or if that doesn't work, link from here

Thanks in advance to all who have knowledge/advice to share!

by **SFGOON** » 19 Dec 2005 10:33

If the key bitting is at all jagged you can't rake the whole pin stack. You may be able to rake the low pins then pin-by-pin the high ones, but other than that, raking alone won't open the lock.

by **digital_blue** » 19 Dec 2005 14:50

Bar none, the best rake shape I've ever used is raimundo's Bogota rake. You can purchase a set of these tools at www.varjeal.com if you like.

As far as identifying the picks in that set you linked to... left to right:

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

db

by **east_stingray** » 19 Dec 2005 16:16

Hahaha! The large feeler hook that you referred to as "useless piece of crap that doesn't fit anything" is the one I've been teaching myself to lift with! It was kind of weird at first, because you can't shoot straight into the keyway. You have to angle down and use the area below the wards for the hook part of the pick. At least I think that's what I've been using. It's the hook one in this picture: http://southord.com/images/fullsize/jpxs-6f.jpg

So, since SouthOrd (and probably others) offer their picks by the single, what's the point in buying a kit like that? It seems like I could get ahold of the 2 or 3 picks that I'm actually going to use for a fraction of the cost.

Also, what are those more exotic pics like the double ball for? Raking a disk tumbler?

by **east_stingray** » 19 Dec 2005 16:19

Oh, and I forgot to add... for someone who is only doing this for the challenge and enjoyment, is it really worth it to spend $30 on a couple of bogota rakes? In other words... are these so much better that I'll not be able to believe it, or would I be better off spending that money on a beginner's kit of slimlines like the one I linked you to? Don't get me wrong... I want to be able to rake well too and if those are the tools to get the job done, that's all that needs to be said!

Thanks again!

by **Exodus5000** » 19 Dec 2005 16:43

East_Stingray, if you're just picking for enjoyment I would say don't even bother with raking at all. Though it can be an effective method of entry, why bother with a method that has a much larger element of luck to it than single pin picking? I think you'll feel much better about a successful lock-pick if you manage with single pin picking than with raking. Look into using different shapes of hooks, i'm currently looking into creating a falle safe deep curve series, for example.

by **east_stingray** » 19 Dec 2005 18:00

I am just picking for enjoyment, but when I come across a skill such as raking, which could potentially be necessary at some time in the future to ensure my safety/well being, I try to master it BEFORE the time comes to use it. Call me paranoid, but that's how I operate.

by **digital_blue** » 19 Dec 2005 20:41

east_stingray wrote:... is it really worth it to spend $30 on a couple of bogota rakes? In other words... are these so much better that I'll not be able to believe it...

Well, in the hands of someone who knows how to use them, the are like black freakin' magic (I feel like I've said that before

) but at the end of the day, they're still just tools.

That large hook is crazy big and I find it exceptionally difficult to use it in even the largest of keyways.

As for buying a set vs. individual picks, I suppose it depends on what you want, and what you hope to accomplish. I am a proponent of buying the largest set of tools you can comfortably afford so that you'll have a wide range to experiment with. You'll never get the chance to figure out which picks work well for you and which don't if you don't have a wide range to play with.

But there's no reason why you can't learn to pick locks with just a hook either. It just depends on how diverse you'd like your skills to be in the end.

Hope that helps!

db

by **vector40** » 19 Dec 2005 20:47

Aren't those tremendous rakes supposed to be for mailboxes or something?

by **SFGOON** » 19 Dec 2005 22:25

The bogota works as a cross between a large rake and a profile pick - excellent stuff.

by **east_stingray** » 19 Dec 2005 23:32

Ok, digital blue, I know this has been covered in other threads (I've read them ALL!), so don't flame me, but what would YOU recommend I buy as my first set. You've shown me through your intelligent and well-written posts that you know what the shazam you're talking about.

That being said, here's what I'm looking to get out of lockpicking. I think this is one heck of a fun hobby. I've mounted a cylinder on a short piece of 1X4 that I can lay across my legs and work on while I watch tv. I look for it to entertain me, but also to increase my dexterity and ability to tell what's going on where even when I can't see my work. I am also addicted to knowledge, its aquisition, and its exercise. Books are dangerous for me. I don't sleep or eat regularly when I've got something interesting to learn. Now that I've started doing this, I'm hooked on it.

Beyond the other things, I can see a couple of really practical uses for this knowledge. This is not an exhaustive list, just a few off the top of my head. First off, I'm an EMT here in my hometown. Many times we've gotten on scene and been locked out. Not much good to someone who's bleeding to death in the other room. Our options then are to either break down the door (windows are a no-no because broken glass really doesn't help in an emergency, and neither does a wounded EMT) or wait for the cops to get there. Breaking down the door may sound like a good idea when someone's dying, but I think you'd all be surprised how quick someone forgets that you saved their life and remembers that in America you can sue anyone for anything. Also the fact that it's really stinking hard to break down some doors. If I could whip a rake out and have the lock open in 30 seconds, everyone's happy (and ALIVE!). No property damage done. Happy ending. (just in case any of you are wondering about the legality of this, we wondered the same thing at the department. we asked the local cops. they said they didn't see a problem with it, because in most states you have to be breaking/entering or burglarizing for it to be illegal. We're not breaking/entering because we operate on implied consent when the person calls 911, and we're not stealing anything!)

That's just one scenario, and for the sake of keeping this post from being any longer I won't post more. Anyway, THAT is the kind of practical knowledge I want to have on top of the hobby itself. If I haven't bored you to death with all of this, I'd appreciate your advice on what kind of tools would best cover both the hobby and practical spectrum, and perhaps what kind of practice in my hobby time would most apply to practical use.

by **digital_blue** » 20 Dec 2005 0:03

Well east, I stand by my old faithful: "Buy the largest pick set you can comfortably afford". If you can comfortably afford it, you won't be bothered by all the picks you don't end up using after you've learned what works and what doesn't.

The mac daddy of them all has got to be the Falle-Safe tools, but even if you can comfortably afford these, I'd suggest you get your feet wet with a SouthOrd set first. When you're new to this, you don't yet know how much force is enough, and how much is too much. Better to learn that lesson on a cheaper set. If your long term plan is to think about having the best, I'd say start with something like the SouthOrd 14 or 17 piece set to start with, then get the Falle's at a latter date. If your intention is to make one initial purchase of tools that you hope to have last you for a long time to come, with no plans to upgrade down the road, it's a little tougher to recommend something. You may want something of better quality than SouthOrd in that case, but I've never personally used anything but SouthOrd, Falle-Safe, and my homemade picks. Some like HPC, some like Peterson. I'd defer that to someone else to make a recommendation at that point.

So, you get to decide where you fall into the above. If you figure this will be a lasting hobby, and your long term budget will support the best, I'd say get a medium sized SouthOrd set first to cut your teeth on lockpicking, and then invest in the Falle-Safe tools once you really know what you're doing.

Really, if all you ever owned was a SouthOrd 14 piece set, you would probably do fine. It might, however, give you incentive to start making your own picks, because the range of hooks in the Falle tools is marvelous.

In the following thread (near the bottom) there are pictures of a set of Falle knock-offs that I made some time ago. They still work great, though I'm glad I purchased the real thing.

viewtopic.php?t=7327&start=0

Hope this helps!

db

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