Question about Weiser locks

[Bomberman]

What are the three holes in the picture for?? They are too small for any pins to fit in them... So does anybody know what they are for??

[Chucklz]

Those holes are used in construction keying. Briefly, the lock is masterkeyed using ball bearings in those first three positions. When the construction key is used, the ball bearings are in the plug. When the homeowner/breakout key is used for the first time, the ball bearings are above the shear line. Turning the key, allows the bearings to drop into those holes, and voila the construction key no longer works.

[Bomberman]

Those holes are used in construction keying. Briefly, the lock is masterkeyed using ball bearings in those first three positions. When the construction key is used, the ball bearings are in the plug. When the homeowner/breakout key is used for the first time, the ball bearings are above the shear line. Turning the key, allows the bearings to drop into those holes, and voila the construction key no longer works.

Ahhh... Makes so much sense now

You're smart.. Thanks..

[marso]

Could you imagine trying to pick the ball bearings to rest on the sheer line. Ouch! Thanks for the descript Chucklz I had no idea how construction keys worked before this.

[CitySpider]

Could you imagine trying to pick the ball bearings to rest on the sheer line.

How come nobody makes locks like that? Seems like it might be a good idea. (I've been awake for twelve minutes, so I might not be thinking straight).

[Chucklz]

I don't think it would be too bad. The ball bearings are used as a kind of master pin. Pick it to say within a 1/3 of its diameter , and you may get it to "push" to the right height when you torque the lock. Kind of like picking pins that have a slight bevel to them. You get just a little more play, but in this case, you may get alot more. I bet it the feel would be confusing at first though.

Then again, through a few into a lock that has spool pins, and I bet you would be really hurting.

[marso]

I didn't quite understand the description of how ball-bearing one-time masterkeying works. (I know how regular wafer masterkeying works.)

To the best of my knowledge I will try to describe the ball bearing thing.

Basically your stack is as follows: bottom pin, ball bearing, top pin, spring. Construction key goes in and it is cut so the ball bearing is below the shear line. The breakout key is used at the end of building and this is cut slightly higher which makes the ball bearing go over the shearline. When the key is first turned the ball bearning follow the plug as normal until they reach the holes and then fall in. Hence the construction key will no longer work. So I guess you would then have the home owner key that has the new cuts (minus the ball bearings) and all is sweet.

One skill that is very important in lockpicking is visualisation. We can not teach you this you must learn it on your own. Read and learn as much as you can about locks. Learn to pick after you understand how it all works.

wafer masterkeying ???

The most common lock to be master keyed is the pin tumbler. I would suggest you read the FAQ and the glossary. Also the MIT guide, Crypto, how stuff works.

[Sapio]

*nod* I see that now; thanks for the better description, Marso.

How big are the ball bearings? It'd seem they'd have to be smaller diameter than the pins, to be able to fit the second holeset; that would imply that they'd also have a fair amount of wiggle room before being "broken out".

Also, I would suspect that (given the probable low tolerance of feasible ball diameters) all the bearings are the same size. After all, the bearing would have to fully fit within the smaller hole, without being so small that it starts causing a problem keeping the pins vertical.

This would mean that, given a "construction" key (or duplicate thereof), one could fairly easily just add the bearing size to get the actual key measurements, and just make a new one by code. Ne?

Sure, it's one level off, but I wouldn't consider that "secure".

[marso]

Sapio, I too have been thinking about this for the past hour or two. I have concluded that they must use a number of ball bearings on top of each other. Also the fact there can be three stacks that can contain ball bearings inceases the number of possible construction key combinations.

Can someone who has experience with construction locks please confirm/correct this. Any chance someone can take apart a lock that has been setup with a construction key and photograph it.

[Chucklz]

There is usually just one set of ball bearings in a pin stack. Unfortunately, a house key could be generated by just adding the depth of the ball bearings in the correct positions. Even more unfortunately, in housing developments, the houses are often also MK'd with standard master pins so that the construction company/real estate agent/ developers only need one key for all the houses. When you "break out" you still inactivate the construction master key, but there are still all those master pins in your lock.

You can generally only have one bearing per chamber, as the holes they drop into isnt very deep. Some brands allow for construction keying in all 5 chambers, instead of just the three sown on that Weiser plug.

[Sapio]

Chuklz - Wouldn't that make it trivially easy for anyone with access to any single lock to make themselves a master?

Also, wouldn't bearings - while still in - make the lock far easier to pick? With as large of a margin as a bearing is likely to have, it'd be hard to miss. (Plus, it'd just roll itself to the right place under any angular pressure...)

I remember seeing self-rekeying keys described that had wafer-removers on their spine, such that their cut is for the master but the result after using them (and removing the master wafers) would be one-level-down. I suppose this isn't the same system as used for "breaking out", though, as it would require an extra (transitional) key.

Which, of course, would be waaaay to complicated for Joe User.

[Chucklz]

Yes, the construction keying/masterkeying that occurs in most developments leads to attrocious security. That's why one of the first things a new homeowner should do is get all the locks rekeyed. Make sure to check the top pins as well to make sure you are not including any master pins.

[UnLock]

Hello all,

I might be able to help as far as getting a picture of this system. Just the other day a friend of mine gave me a Kwikset lock that was used when he was having his house built. When he inserted the key and turned it, the key would stick at the 2 o'clock position so he had me take a look at it. When I took it apart I found a super small piece of a metal bump on the core which made it rub therefore creating the sticky point. I filed it down and the lock is working 100%.

Now to the point...the lock had 5 seperate holes beside the others and in them were 5 very small/thin sections of what looked like to be pins and not ball bearings. Perhaps this is just another form they use. I still have the lock so I'll take it apart again and do my best to take pics of it with my cheapo camera. I hope I can get a close enough shot of it. I should have the pics up very shortly.

[UnLock]

Here are 2 pics...one is of the lock core and the other is of my custom plug follower! Hey, whatever works!

Sorry I couldn't take a clearer picture but like I said, my camera is cheap. It's hard to make out but the extra pins outside the core are incredibly thin. The shortest is only 0.5 mm and the longest is 1.1mm.

You'll also notice there are only 4 extra pins...not sure what happened to the 5th.

[Chucklz]

Do those pins actually fit into the holes drilled on the side, or merely cover them? Are the pins of smaller diameter than standard pins?