scorpion locks

by **searsman05** » 1 Jan 2006 20:05

Does anybody know an online site etc. where they have scorpion locks. i checked there website but could not find any info on places to buy. thanks for any info you have

-james

by **digital_blue** » 1 Jan 2006 20:16

I could be wrong here, but I think Varjeal sells them. Really not sure, but it rings a bell. May want to PM him about it.

db

by **searsman05** » 1 Jan 2006 20:51

thanks for the info i will send him a pm and see what he has to say.

-james

by **stlbolt** » 1 Jan 2006 22:24

I thought you had to be a locksmith to buy them newayz?

by **digital_blue** » 2 Jan 2006 4:00

stlbolt wrote:I thought you had to be a locksmith to buy them newayz?

Um.... huh? So... only locksmiths can own them? Eventually *somebody* who's not a locksmith gets to own one, otherwise they'd only ever be used locksmith shops. It would make sense that you have to be locksmith to *sell* them, but not buy them.

Also... correction. Scratch what I said about Varjeal selling Scorpion locks. My mistake.

db

by **vector40** » 2 Jan 2006 4:04

Well, it might be the case that locksmiths can install them but end-users can't buy them wholesale. That's true for some things; consider restricted blanks.

Just keepin' your blood pressure up, db...

by **digital_blue** » 2 Jan 2006 4:06

vector40 wrote:Just keepin' your blood pressure up, db...

by **skold** » 2 Jan 2006 4:36

Are these not the locks that are similar to the scanlock?

by **digital_blue** » 2 Jan 2006 5:14

Yes, similar, but there does appear to be some differences. The Scanlocks do not have the funky top pins that the Scorpions have. My understanding is that the Scanlock was a knockoff of the Scorpion, but is no longer in production.

db

by **zeke79** » 2 Jan 2006 11:14

skold wrote:Are these not the locks that are similar to the scanlock?

Skold, the scorpion CX5 is the same design as the Scan Lock but has some nice differences. The top pins in the scorpion are identical to the top pins used in the ASSA SCD, Twin, V10, and Twin Pro. These pins are somewhat similar to a spool but the spooled area is much shorter than normal and engages with counter milling in the plug. This effectively does away with the counter rotation that is experienced when a spool or mushroom pin is trapped at shear line. A very nice addition to a high security lock indeed. This feature is not found on the scan locks and from what I can see is the main difference.

-Zeke79

by **linty** » 2 Jan 2006 14:03

i may be wrong about this, but i'm pretty sure that you have to be registered to sell scorpion locks, and each registered seller gets their own sidebar combination, which means you'd probably have to buy it from a locksmith and all the keys you get would have to come from the same locksmith.

by **workstation** » 3 Jan 2006 7:13

linty,

If it's the case that every lock shop has just one sidebar permutation, then the Scorpion lock has the same vulnerability to bumping as the ASSA twin. You would simply buy a lock from the shop that provided the lock you want to bump (i.e. the dealership in the same city), and then make a bump key from that. The sidebar cuts will match, and it's then just a case of bumping the pin columns.

You say you're not sure whether this is true. I have no idea, and hadn't even heard of Scorpion locks until today, but it does seem to be implied by the website that the sidebar millings are put on in the factory: http://www.scorpionlocks.com/products/Pro_main.htm

In particular, they say, "Each official CX-5 distributor is assigned a unique open sidebar configuration. ", and "Keys can be cut on any standard key duplicating machine, or by code cutting machine, with HPC card. No special machine is required". (i.e. the lock shop doesn't put the sidebar cuts on; that would require a special machine.)

Such a vulnerability in the business model would be a shame, as this seems like a very good lock.

by **Varjeal** » 4 Jan 2006 10:20

A Scorpion CX5 dealer, much like with any high security brand, can have multiple sidebar bittings depending on their customer base and what they're willing to purchase.

Quite often in larger centers, a locksmith will purchase a single sidebar configuration for a large complex. For example, a hospital or university may have it's own unique sidebar configuration completely different from what the locksmith offers to smaller commercial or residential customers.

Sidebar millings are indeed controlled by the factory, and the locksmith purchases key "blanks" with the side millings already cut.

I don't feel it's a vulnerability to be able to use a standard key machine to duplicate the keys..it's good business sense to NOT have to have a special machine. Schlage Primus is also set up the same way.

I won't discuss it in the public forums, but there are other "tricks" to protecting against standard duplication.

The main protection any high security lock has is for locksmiths to properly control their key inventory, and to refrain from selling blanks.

by **workstation** » 4 Jan 2006 17:32

Varjeal wrote:
Quite often in larger centers, a locksmith will purchase a single sidebar configuration for a large complex. For example, a hospital or university may have it's own unique sidebar configuration completely different from what the locksmith offers to smaller commercial or residential customers.

So all the masterkeying is in the pin columns? Surely then anyone with a key to any lock in the institution can file it down into a bump key, thereby giving themself unlimited access? (at least until they wear the locks out through bumping)

I like the mechanics of this lock, but as I say, I personally am not keen on the business model.

by **Omikron** » 4 Jan 2006 19:32

workstation wrote:
Varjeal wrote:
Quite often in larger centers, a locksmith will purchase a single sidebar configuration for a large complex. For example, a hospital or university may have it's own unique sidebar configuration completely different from what the locksmith offers to smaller commercial or residential customers.

So all the masterkeying is in the pin columns? Surely then anyone with a key to any lock in the institution can file it down into a bump key, thereby giving themself unlimited access? (at least until they wear the locks out through bumping)

I like the mechanics of this lock, but as I say, I personally am not keen on the business model.

Yes, this means that anyone with an operating key for a lock within the institution would be able to file down the key to a bump key, but this is true of MANY locks, including Medeco and other high security locks.

Scorpion is not the only one with this business model, as much of the industry operates this way. Unfortunate? Yes. Uncommon? No.

scorpion locks

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