question for the 'old hands' I guess

[horsefeathers]

Hi all, first proper post - bear with me!

I am only a few months into being a locksmith and trying to gain as much info as possible in as short a time as possible!

Since i started professionally (and during my training course) i have bought stock, and checked out catalogues etc and even trying to get together a lock keyway id booklet. One problem i faced a while ago was when I had to attend a 'lost key' situation for a mortice lock. Red case, hardplate, but ruled out Union. To cut a long story short entry was gained (suffice to say that I did not have at that time a curtain pick). Discovered it was ERA. Of course in my short Locksmith career I suppose i believed that all ERA 5 levers were, and more importantly, always had been, dark gold!!! Talk about 'tunnel vision' So while I can build up a database of modern keyways/colours etc, is there anywhere which helps newbies identify old mortice locks, like those 5, 10 or even more years ago? Anyone got any old catalogues they want to get rid of for example? Any advice from seasoned experts?

regards

wayne

[illusion]

red case.. that would be the 'old' Era Invincible I reckon...

the new ones are olive-gold/champagne and have dimples on either side of the keyway...

the new Profits also have the same characteristics.

[horsefeathers]

True - as i now know. Of course my van stock has all the new ERA stuff (why then do they produce the new Fortress in Red???). I believe it probably was the 'old' invincible like you say as I replaced it perfectly with a new Invincible i had on the van. Dont ask why I had to replace it!!!

I heard a rumour that Pinky might know of where help can be found on old lock identification (thanks Chris B) - perhaps you can beat him to it???

regards
wayne

[taylorgdl]

Pinky sells them on his website, I don't know what they're like as I don't have one. I've heard it's the best available though.

www.rapidlocksmith.com

G.

[Shrub]

Which course did you do?

Mortice id is one of the main things you need to learn, walk around all your local lock suppliers and write down the differant charecteristics of each lock you find, search the forums to look for anything else.

[horsefeathers]

thanks so far guys,

Course - Hereford 3 week with Bob Curry

But would not local lock suppliers only stock current, or only slightly out of date, locks? I am referring to the 10 year plus variety, the owners of which have let stiffen up over the last 5 years without bothering to do anything about it until it is too late variety. Or who repeatedly jam with duff cut third generation keys.

regards

wayne

[Shrub]

You may be supprised some hardware stores round here still sell the old viscounts and invinclibles but yes generally they would stock the newer models.

Get one of Pinky's cd's if you can, it will be a great help to you and £50 is a good price for someone in your position.

Drilling locks should never be done unless the lock has a total failure and no other way is possable, drilling locks is a no no just because you cant id it or pick it, its live and learn and mortice id is an invaluble skill to have.

[horsefeathers]

I have just emailed pinky (via website - seems a bit rude at the moment to PM him as a newbie) so await his reply.

thanks
wayne

[pinky]

The old invincible was red, it came in 2 differing hardplates, 1) had a full oval cut out around the keyway, 2) had the traditional ERA hardplate running above keyway, no dimples either side, both had that crude dirty looking curtain.
but aldridge used to also sell invincible in red with the dimple either side !

Confused yet ?

But dont forget the old ERA Endurance that was in production until a few years ago, different leverpack entirely for picking also in red!

Question is, which of the 3 ERA locks above was it, one of the invincibles or an endurance.

What surprises me is that bobs course is 3 weeks long, and lock id methods takes a few hours to teach with a good cd or lock id book given out to compliment it, why in 3 weeks was lock id not covered, you cant work without this skill, after all if you cant id it, then you cannot pick it and cannot even drill it properly.

Did this 3 week course cover the use of curtain picks, did you cover the use hands on of these tools picking ERA , Legge , Union , Chubb , Walsall , Avocet and yale BS3621 locks by hand with a range of curtain picks, including chris belchers, safe ventures and rb's tools ?

Did this 3 week course cover the use of all the following decoders;

chubb 3G114 pin and cam
Chubb 3G110 pin and cam
Legge pin and cam
all 3 may be pin and cam but all work and feel very different.

ERA Invincible Slide Decoder
Walsall / Abus Slide Decoder
Avocet Slide Decoder

again all similar picks, with different styles of use and different feels.

union plastercine kit
ERA Profit plastercine pick
securefast pick

Im confused as to how a course can run 3 weeks and not teach this stuff, and im amazed that lock id isnt fully covered.
was all the basic tools like pick guns , 2 in 1 picks overlifters etc covered ?

Not having a dig at you at all, im just amazed that in 3 weeks these basic skills are not taught, especially basic skills like lock id that one cannot work without, especially at nearly 3 weeks and almost £3000.

Id be interested to hear what was covered as im sure would many guys looking at training at the moment.

[SteveW]

Hi Horsefeathers

Until several weeks ago i was in the same posision as yourself, ive spent the lasy six months gradualy puting together my own mortice id info. Its a very long and laborious task, but ive received alot of help along the way, and now i think ive got most of my bases covered.

Ive had to use my chart perhaps a dozen times in the last few weeks and its been spot on every time, so its worth sticking at it, you will always get a few surprises along the way, but its only a surprise the first time around

Ive found older locks a problem myself but all the info is out there and much can be found in various threads on this site. Pinkys disk will probably be of great help to you but personally ive never seen it

I could have done with that six months ago

[horsefeathers]

I am not going to criticise heavily Bob’s course because I feel it offered a lot and was far better than those ebay courses, or those run in hotel rooms etc.

However, with hindsight, I must admit that many things certainly should have been covered. Picking of curtained locks, BS or not, was not covered at all. No mention of tools available to defeat these. In fact I came away thinking that the only thing that could be done to these was to drill them, using pinpoint drilling templates etc. Only relatively recently did I discover tools and techniques for overcoming these without using the drill - now have CB’s 5g pick, others to follow in due course. Plasticine and pin and cam kits were covered and practised with, but not on every lock that these techniques cover.

Maybe partly it was due to the fact that it was not one-to-one that limits slightly the training and time given. Of course teaching more than one student at a time means that inevitably some are slower at picking things up and more time has to be given to helping those get up to speed. So maybe not everything can be covered in as much detail as a single student would have liked (with hindsight).

Lock id was pretty much left to us to discover. No cd’s or catalogues given out. Shame!

I guess that looking back, the work done in the course could have been condensed into two weeks, the third week should have covered all aspects of mortice locks, picking and identifying, in much more detail. A week most definately not wasted.

regards

[pinky]

It surprised me that these basics were not covered, as bob has always been one of the good guys and not one of the villains out there, and for what he charges, he should cover these areas, especialy in todays changing climate against destructive entry.
.
Though he does cover drilling and lock fitting well im told.

[toomush2drink]

Wow i learnt lock id, curtain picking (theory, practice required) and about lock decoders in a weekend in hotel room for very little in comparision. Lock id is the biggest skill to learn i found or you could come seriously unstuck, my first mortice lock gave me a massive headache, blue case,silver curtain 5g, righthand side, some horrible thing called keypsafe fitted to a metal door, couldnt get much worse really. I only got it open after ringing the tutor for advice and did have to drill it but without that backup i would have had to walk away.
Doing a day on the decoders is worth it but it all comes down to practice.

[bonez]

yeah same as 2mush

i did all these in a hotel room and the back up from the tutors
is invalueable , lock id is difficult but as said if in doubt ask!!!!!!

it's a long learning curve as steve w said to me the other day
"you think you have all your bases covered then something
smacks you in the face"

but thats the fun part of the job!

the never ending challenge!

[SteveW]

Bonez is right ive been slaped alot lately

But everything can be overcome, if you work at it