Design a mortice

[NKT]

From the ERA Fortress thread, Pinky and Don mentioned that ERA tried but failed to make a better lock. I bet between us we could design a real £^$£ of a lock...

I'd go with a carbide anti-saw roller, for a start! That would stop 90% of council "locksmiths" who use a powersaw through the bolt.

Remove the traditional stump design, have two locking stumps, or some sort of linkage, so if it was drilled the lock would stay locked. Spot hardened anti-drill insert under the lever drill point, to stop the pack being lifted up through a 2 or 3mm hole.

Make it a hard but fair pick, and just about impossible for any other method, is my aim.

[taylorgdl]

What is Therm*te proof ?

[NKT]

Pretty much all of them!?!

Should I have said "Serious ideas only"?

[taylorgdl]

I take it "the hard but fair pick" is so that those of use that do actually need to open it can do ?

And if you are designing a better lock (or mousetrap ?) don't you need a better door/frame etc to fix it in ?

G.

[NKT]

Yes and no.

Yes, I'm thinking if we make it so driller-killers can't get into it, we get more money and protect our investment in our skills!
And No, I don't really care beyond meeting the BS standards for the strikes, the doors are generally fine unless it's some burglar with a jack, rather than someone messing up the lock change.

[nicholls]

put a layer of shaterable sugar glass inside that drops a pin into a hole in the bolt hense stopping the bolt from drawing, much like some safe designs.

[nicholls]

if you start producing a super death mortice, which may cost hundreds of pounds you might as well get a dremel with a cutting wheel and repair the existing doors wood. Im guessing this would be cheaper than buying a kickass mortice. Maybe the door is to be made of ebony and an ebony frame???

[NKT]

What's all this about repairing the frame?

Anyway, the "kick-ass" mortices exist, and sell well. Some Chubbs costs £70 RRP, and Abloy, Bramah and Banham all make very neat locks that are over £100 each. People are prepared to pay for the best. Well, some are. Especially the military and the paranoid millionaries in London.

Anyway, for not that much money, it could be invincible. Hence profit on sales, and you wouldn't need a fortress to benefit. Now how many more names can I drop before I have to legge it?

[nicholls]

Hmm. but what i mean is if a burglar knew it was a 'Hyper lock' and he was intent on burgling the house then he would probably (most probably) kick the door down....if the materials used for the door were poor...such as pine. In that respect buying the lock which may cost say £400 against the cost of the door £250 is just a waste of money. Coinsedently, may be he kicked the door down to steal the lock, spear parts!!!

[Shrub]

Good union of words there

[horsefeathers]

Agreed that amendments could be made but I feel that most customers are cost, rather than security, concious. Offer them a £25 BS 5 Lever mortice or a £60 'anti-drill' lock with glass, two stumps etc and many would go for the cheaper option - human nature. Most probably assume that no burglars actually drill mortice locks (too much noise etc), instead they are gonna break a back window, so why pay for that option. Only locksmiths drill locks and a locksmith would know the correct place to drill anyway etc etc .......

If the insurance policy requires BS 5 lever then that is all most people would go for.

Funny that people can buy and have fitted a £60 BS Yale rim latch PBS1, yet if you offer them a similar priced mortice, they look at you like you are ripping them off!

The cost of these super duper mortice locks (to the customer) has to be kept at around £30-40ish if they are gonna sell in numbers. Can they be manufactured for £10-£15 cost price to us?

regards

wayne

[nicholls]

Are we price drivenby this NKT???????????

Maybe the mortice doesn't have to be key operated, ERA have already got the idea of having a car style blipper, but then if someone got hold of a decoding device....maybe the code has to be encrypted???

[TOWCH]

A lever lock with a bouncing fence: S&G 8500 style.

[NKT]

I'd rather it had a keyhole, with a physical key. No fun "picking" it with a keypress on the laptop, is there?

As for people banging on about burglars and smashing the door down, stop it! We are talking about the lock design, not the door and the windows and the little skylight that only a size 6 model or a child could rob... If Chubb, Bramah and the other greats of the locksmithing world had felt that way, the ultimate in security today would be a wood screw costing 4p to hold the door shut, and no-one without the right cross-head screwdriver would get in. People do buy good locks, especially businesses. Most people don't have a Chubb, they have an ERA or something cheaper, yet there are millions of Chubbs on doors in this country, and thousands of even better and more expensive types. Heck, a single Chubb detainer costs more than a cheapest noddy Euro cylinder!

Of course cost is an option. However, a sheet of glass 2" by 2" is cheap, cheaper than welded-on hardplate probably, and harder. Hardened steel pins are cheap, but one carbide insert would, in bulk, probably cost no more than £1-50 a time, yet stop even a cobalt drill bit or saw stone cold, which the hardened pins won't. And then you save on the other pins, too, as one would be enough. Yes, it could still be drilled, but you would need a mains drill with some serious hardware.

If you had an anti-drill glass plate, you could design the lock so that when it shattered, the bits of glass would jam the internals, even without the complexity of a re-locker system. Just the bits falling in the way could well be enough. That would slow drillers down massively. Little rubber bushes would stop it shattering under door slams and general abuse.

Bramah stop the drill by use of a hardened bearing that means there is no stump you can hit, and you need to cut a 12mm hole to remove it, through 2mm of hardplate. And people pay extra for that. Likewise, the Abloy high-end cylinders are available with an extra hardened front end for about £40, which will stop snapping and drill attacks on the Euro cylinder. Likewise, some people pay the extra for that, too.

Having seen inside some of the high-end safe locks, as well as some of the cheap ones, there are many almost trivial things that can be done to frustrate picking, too. Just careful lever design will stop a lot of people from having the skills required, at least until they practise a bit more! Spring-loaded lever hinges and serrated bolt edges can cause real issues with getting the tension right.

These are just my initial thoughts. I'm sure some of you can come up with something nasty for the inside of the 2.5" and 3" lumps that keep us safe at night.

[79commando]

How about just fitting a magnetic sliding security escutcheon that closes over the keyway (made out of hardlate). And a claw bolt that hooks into a keep which is an integral part of the door. No access for picking and if you wedge the door the frame moves also