Questions about gun safes

[Raccoon]

What will survive a fire or the business end of a sledge hammer? Electrical devices also need feeding. In times of emergency, the last thing you want is dead batteries keeping you away from your weapons. Though, an electrical lock can be set to require a 20 minute delay to open. This solves the *point gun at head* "Open it now!"

And I'm afraid I haven't researched the prices or sizes of fire safes. I just figure if you can find a full safe large enough to accomodate rifles, then surely someone makes the same thing with a whole lot less metal, that costs a whole lot less. I'm of the belief that you don't need 3 inches of steel to protect your guns, but that some flame retardant composit that's pretty-damn-tough might be just the ticket.

[VTX]

What will survive a fire or the business end of a sledge hammer? Electrical devices also need feeding. In times of emergency, the last thing you want is dead batteries keeping you away from your weapons. Though, an electrical lock can be set to require a 20 minute delay to open. This solves the *point gun at head* "Open it now!"

And I'm afraid I haven't researched the prices or sizes of fire safes. I just figure if you can find a full safe large enough to accomodate rifles, then surely someone makes the same thing with a whole lot less metal, that costs a whole lot less. I'm of the belief that you don't need 3 inches of steel to protect your guns, but that some flame retardant composit that's pretty-<censored>-tough might be just the ticket.

Good point about the electrical locks possibly failing in time of need. However, they are quicker to open. That being said, I don't keep my home defense gun locked up, so quick access isn't something I need. I have always been a little turned of by the idea of a lock that needs batteries.


So far I haven't found any fire-only safes that are big enough to hold long guns that are cheap enough to make it worth getting one of those rather than one that can protect against both theft and fire. There are some cheap gun safes that are "fireproof", but the metal is so thin as to offer no protection against theft, and the "fireproofing" consists of drywall. From what I've read, drywall is nothing more than a flame barrier, not a heat insulator. That means while the flames may temporarily be kept at bay, it will still be scorching hot inside the safe and anything inside will be ruined anyway.

So, it seems to me, from what I've found so far, my options are to leave all my guns laying around, or get an adaquate safe, something like the Amsec BF at least.

[foo]

Good point about the electrical locks possibly failing in time of need. However, they are quicker to open. That being said, I don't keep my home defense gun locked up, so quick access isn't something I need. I have always been a little turned of by the idea of a lock that needs batteries.

A nice solution to that problem is the LaGard 2441. It's a more-or-less normal 4 wheel mechanical safe lock. ...But you can hook up the model 3000 keypad to it. The WAF is very high on this unit

Best of both worlds: reliability of a mechanical lock with the convenience of an electronic lock!

Plus, the 3000 keypad has an external battery compartment which eliminates PITA dead lock jumpstarts. The batteries live outside the safe, in the keypad housing.

The whole package (lock, keypad, dial and ring) is about $185.

...And the combination of a mechanical dial and an electronic keypad is likely to confuse/intimidate most would be safecrackers. This is a very seldom seen combination. Thugs with a claw hammer probably wouldn't notice the difference, but maybe they won't break both mechanisms, leaving you one option to open the box...

One downside is that you'll need to drill 3 new holes in your safe (and thread two of them) for the keypad and wiring.

/foo

[devildog]

I think a lot of people reading this post are missing something that distinguishes this from any other person wanting a good safe to keep his duck guns and deer rifles in: this guy's got NFA weapons. Most people in the U.S. that actually know guns don't know what NFA/Class III weapons are. Essentially, you 'can' get a license from the BATF to buy a fully automatic weapon (think MP5, AK-47, M-16A1, Uzi, etc.) and not only is it very difficult to do with a lot of red tape, FBI background check, etc. but since NFA weapons that can be purchased by civilians are limited to a set number of those weapons made prior to 1986, the price of those weapons has gone up every year since 1986, making them VERY expensive. A H&K MP-5 that might cost a law enforcement agency about $1500 is going to run you $15,000-$20,000 if you're a civilian with a Class III license.

So, yes, you ARE right to be paranoid about that--I would. Not only are they expensive as he#% but they're also select fire weapons that the wrong person could cause a minor catastrophe with. A standard gun safe from Amsec or Winchester will hold up against forced entry from an idiot with a crowbar, sledge hammer, whatever just fine, but if you want something that will stop somebody who half-a$$ knows what they're doing, and they've got a drill, then you're right to want a little more. Here's a post that I posted a BUNCH of information in about this to essentially the same question:
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=10335&highlight=

Do make sure you go to UL's website: you can look up who has safes that meet the rating that you want (TL-15 or whatever) and then look them up on the net.

[workstation]

Sorry to be picky, devildog, but the 1986 cut-off date only applies to machine guns. Other NFA weapons manufactured after that date are still available. Strictly speaking, it's not actually a licence, either; it's a tax stamp (not that this makes much difference in practical terms.)

[VTX]

Sorry to be picky, devildog, but the 1986 cut-off date only applies to machine guns. Other NFA weapons manufactured after that date are still available. Strictly speaking, it's not actually a licence, either; it's a tax stamp (not that this makes much difference in practical terms.)

Yes, that is correct. I think it's a good distinction to make.

My NFA items are not full auto machine guns. I'd certainly love to have some, but they are just a "tad" out of my price range. When I said NFA items, more specifically I'm referring to short barreled rifles and supressors. Certainly not cheap, but not near what a machine gun costs.

[VTX]

Good point about the electrical locks possibly failing in time of need. However, they are quicker to open. That being said, I don't keep my home defense gun locked up, so quick access isn't something I need. I have always been a little turned of by the idea of a lock that needs batteries.

A nice solution to that problem is the LaGard 2441. It's a more-or-less normal 4 wheel mechanical safe lock. ...But you can hook up the model 3000 keypad to it. The WAF is very high on this unit

Best of both worlds: reliability of a mechanical lock with the convenience of an electronic lock!

Plus, the 3000 keypad has an external battery compartment which eliminates PITA dead lock jumpstarts. The batteries live outside the safe, in the keypad housing.

The whole package (lock, keypad, dial and ring) is about $185.

...And the combination of a mechanical dial and an electronic keypad is likely to confuse/intimidate most would be safecrackers. This is a very seldom seen combination. Thugs with a claw hammer probably wouldn't notice the difference, but maybe they won't break both mechanisms, leaving you one option to open the box...

One downside is that you'll need to drill 3 new holes in your safe (and thread two of them) for the keypad and wiring.

/foo

Thanks foo. That lock sounds interesting and isn't too expensive either. The only thing that bothers me is drilling holes in any safe I'd buy. I wouldn't want to set off the relockers! How hard would it be to avoid doing this on the Amsec BF?

I really don't mind all mechanical though. Any oppinions on the mechanical lock used on the Amsec BF? Is it a good one? Is it a good match to the strength of the box?

I appreciate the link devildog. I'll give that a read.

[foo]

I really don't mind all mechanical though. Any oppinions on the mechanical lock used on the Amsec BF? Is it a good one? Is it a good match to the strength of the box?

It's probably an S&G 6700 series lock.

Yes, it's a good one, but it's a group 2... By definition it can be manipulated.

Not many people know the technique, but the information is readily availble and anyone can learn how to do it.

Some people think that's a good situation: it leaves a back door so that your spouse can hire a ninja locksmith to open the safe when you're comatose in the hospital...

OTOH, your precocious pre-teen could open the box if they were curious enough.

Smash & grab crackheads will likely not have this skill.

/foo

[hzatorsk]

VTX...

I'd have to lean towards choosing the lock from the vendor and having them install it. If you have a reason for something different than their standard offering... discuss it with the vendor and let them do it for you.

Once your drill hits the face of the safe you'll pretty much 'own' your own problems from a warranty point of view.

Relockers, if any, vary... and we don't know where your's will be relative to any particular point on the safe. Generally, the design/placement of relockers and the lock itself are considered together so as to best protect the specific lock. It'd probably be frowned upon to discuss this aspect of safes in the open forums anyway...

The vendor is going to be your best friend in this.

[VTX]

VTX...

I'd have to lean towards choosing the lock from the vendor and having them install it. If you have a reason for something different than their standard offering... discuss it with the vendor and let them do it for you.

Once your drill hits the face of the safe you'll pretty much 'own' your own problems from a warranty point of view.

Relockers, if any, vary... and we don't know where your's will be relative to any particular point on the safe. Generally, the design/placement of relockers and the lock itself are considered together so as to best protect the specific lock. It'd probably be frowned upon to discuss this aspect of safes in the open forums anyway...

The vendor is going to be your best friend in this.

Thanks for the info. I'll probably just stick with the standard lock they install, or if anything have the vendor do it for me. It says it's group two and according to the UL ratings group two sounds adaquate for the protection I'm looking for.

I'm going to try and give Amsec a call later today and find out specifically which lock is on that safe, just to be sure.

[VTX]

LOL, the person I talked to at AMSEC didn't even know who makes the lock. I asked if it was S&G and her response was,"Probably."

She had no idea on the model number or anything. I'm sure it's a fine lock if it's UL group two listed. If you can't tell I'm very cautious about how I spend my money

Next step I guess is to find a dealer that has one in stock so I can look at it in person.

I appreciate all the help. You guys are a great source of information!

[plot]

Good advice: You are going to put more in the safe than you initially think. After all... if you have a gun safe in your home... why not put your coin collection, your passport, etc... in it? Do an inventory before you buy and allow for a little growth.

cheers

But do I really want my guns and valuables in the same place?

If I was buying a safe I'd definatly consider what all I'd put in it and leave room for expansion. For a gun safe though, I'd keep myself to strictly putting guns and ammo in it.

[VTX]

Good advice: You are going to put more in the safe than you initially think. After all... if you have a gun safe in your home... why not put your coin collection, your passport, etc... in it? Do an inventory before you buy and allow for a little growth.

cheers

But do I really want my guns and valuables in the same place?

If I was buying a safe I'd definatly consider what all I'd put in it and leave room for expansion. For a gun safe though, I'd keep myself to strictly putting guns and ammo in it.

Ammo is not a good idea in a safe, from what I understand. Firefighters I've talked to say that if you put ammo in a safe you're essentially creating a big bomb.

If ammo is left out in the open it will probably cook off, but since the bullet is not accelerating down the barrel of a gun, it travels very slowly and won't actually do much damage.

[Varjeal]

The AMSEC BF series will do you fine, and in reality you should determine your needs by the following:

1. The size of valuables you are storing (plus half of that again for additional room.) and do they need to be concealed?

2. Do you want strictly burglary protection, fire protection, or a mixture of both?

3. Do you insure your valuables seperately, or are they covered under your home/tenants insurance?

4. Do you think you might be moving at some point?

5. Would you access the safe frequently? (at least once or twice a week.)

Some other brands to consider (and AMSEC is definitely a worthwhile brand) are Meilink and Diebold. There are many others as well, but always check for the UL tags which should be on the inside of the door, or somewhere in the proximity.

The fact is that if you require significant storage, and burglary as well as fire protection, there are no cheap options.

Overall, I would recommend (without specifying a brand) a good safe with the required space and the TL-15 rating with a solid Group 2 or 1M mechanical lock.

Yes, there is solid technology on the electronic side of things, but the fewer parts and less batteries there are, the more realiable the mechanism. You may want to purchase a safe that also has an auxiliary key-locking mechanism for added security.

Just a few thoughts you've probably already considered.

[eric343]

VTX...

I'd have to lean towards choosing the lock from the vendor and having them install it. If you have a reason for something different than their standard offering... discuss it with the vendor and let them do it for you.

Once your drill hits the face of the safe you'll pretty much 'own' your own problems from a warranty point of view.

Most if not all safe locks in the US use the same mounting footprint, so you can easily swap out locks without having to drill or tap anything.

If it comes with a 6730, you can probably install whatever the heck you want on it. (and for the record, many electronic locks these days have a dial you turn to power the lock -- no batteries needed.)