one unpickable lock

[digital_blue]

Ask and ye shall receive.

http://www.crypto.com/photos/misc/wecolock/

[master in training]

Its pickable, its just not an easy pick

[digital_blue]

Its pickable, its just not an easy pick

Oh really? How's that?

This notion of "no such thing as an unpickable lock" is, to me, just that. A notion. It's a good principle to apply. I understand fully the theory. But let's call a spade a spade, shall we? In practice, there are a few locks that - for all practical purposes - can and should be named unpickable. I see no harm in calling it like I see it. If one of these "unpickable" locks should be shown to be defeated (in any reasonable and reliable sense), then I'd be more than happy to strike its name from the list. But what better term do we have for these few locks that offer such fantastic anti-picking security that no known mortal has been able to reliably and successfully pick it? Shall we say "pick resistant"? I have a number of Master locks that carry that title already.

Calling a lock like this anything but unpickable is, to me, an understatement of its design. If you don't agree with me, please, by all means, pick the lock, get some good video, and explain to us how you did it. I'd be happy to strike it from my list.

Well then, I've had two rants today. I think I'm done for now.

db

[jamesphilhulk2]

D_B i would like to see a list of unpickable lock it is true they may be VERY hard and could take some time to open, but i am a bit subbern so i will stick with my saying

P.S could you please give me some tips on my problem with the tri-circle lock

P.P.S just some friendly banter

[digital_blue]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've scanned this thread looking for your questions about the tricirlce and I can't find them. If you posted in another thread, please PM me a link.

Regarding your stubborness, suit yourself. This idea that all locks can be picked, it's just a matter of time, is just nonsense to me. I would ask you this question: by who? Not by me. Not by pretty well any other lockpicker I know. There are some Yodas out there that seem to have an innate ability to do this impossible, but often times if you read between the lines, you will discover that successful attempts are not always what they appear, and do not stand up to my standard for a "reliable and successful" bypass. Take, for instance, the well-known video of Barry Wels picking a Medeco Biaxial in under 3 minutes. That was very cool, and I don't want to take anything away from Barry. He's done something I haven't. Good on 'im.

However... If you've seen the photos of the pins that were removed from that lock after the picking, as I have, you would see that they were in such poor shape that I'm not convinced the integrity of the lock was maintained. I'd suspect (though I've never tried) that if you were to ask Barry if he could pick a Medeco Biaxial that he had no advanced knowledge of, in ANY reasonable time limit, he would give you an emphatic "No!". These locks are monsters. No two ways about it. Provided they have the false gates on the pins, they are a formidable opponent. I don't doubt that there are those out there that have picked the Medeco Biaxial (heck, Zeke's got a vid of him doing it on his site), but the question is: Can these locks be picked by ANYONE in a reasonable amount of time, with no prior knowledge of the lock?

At this time, my guess is no. Someone may prove me wrong, and I will strike the lock from my list (I don't really have an *actual* list, by the way - it is more of a theoretical list). There are lots of rumorings and mumblings of methods, but I've not seen anyone make the claim that they can do it under test conditions, then step up and prove it.

And maybe the Medeco Biaxial is a bad example. There are others that pose an even greater challenge, to be sure. The M3 is a nasty little <insert expletive>. The Abloy Protec seems to be pretty well secure, though that may change. Though the Mul-T-Lock Interactive would probably not get a "unpickable" list in my books, it is an exceptionally secure system that, even to the very skilled, poses a great enough challenge that picking, in any practical sense, is probably not an option (sans the Michaud exploit which, though cool, has been fixed in newer models as far as I know).

There are more, I'm sure. I don't profess to be anything like a leading expert, and I'm sure there are many others that could top up the list. I would say that, for all intents and purposes, most locks can be picked by an exceptionally skilled lockpicker in a reasonable amount of time, given enough research and understanding of the locking mechanism. I would also say that just about ANY "High Security" (genuine high security, not just what the package tells you) lock is near-about unpickable by the overwhelming majority of lockpickers out there, provided that some reasonable time constraint and test condition is imposed.

If you don't believe me, I'll be happy to take you up on it. You could look at locks such as the Everest, which, if you know enough about them are not really (so I'm told) *that* difficult to pick. I don't know that I would class Everest as a High Security lock, given that the only real high security component is the single check pin that can be easily bypassed. Put in contrast to that, the Primus. Now we're talking. Yes, many of people have picked the Primus. I know that. But if I cracked open two new Primus locks, offered 2 hours to pick both of them, and laid out a signup sheet, who would it be that would step forward and proclaim that the were confident they could do it? Anybody here? No prior knowledge of the locks. No excessive wear and tear. Who bites? It's a hard lock. Having picked one once or twice after endless hours of failed attempts does not constitute, in my opinion, the ability to make the claim that "I can pick Primus locks".

I discussed, in that advanced forums some time ago, an exploit that I was working on for Miwa cam locks. I had some pretty reasonable success with it. I had a lot of fun. I know, in the back of my mind, that if I were faced with opening a Miwa cam lock I *might* be able to do it. I may well not either. I don't know. Depends on some characteristics of the lock. However, I do not make the claim that I can pick Miwa cam locks. If put to the test, I don't know for sure if I'd pass or not. With a little luck, I may. But if my word and reputation were on the line, I'd walk away from the test.

Anyway, I suppose that this discussion, as it always does, boils down to semantics. I just really wanted to challenge this notion that there is no such thing as an "unpickable lock". Great in theory, bad in practice.

db

[vector40]

The idea behind that expression is a theoretical one. It works like this: You can make something impregnable. But then it's useless. You can make something accessible. But then it's not secure.

To make something impregnable except to select people means you have to make the system able to recognize those people and "desecure" for them.

The recognition process can be spoofed. The security process can be bypassed, or if nothing else, nullified completely with brute force; materials science knows no invincible substances.

This is all 100% as far as theory goes. So by that reasoning the only unpickable lock would be one that, due to some kind of logical perfection, literally could not be opened by anybody but the authorized persons. But concepts that are logically perfect (as in, it is impossible by the very terms of the system for anything else to occur) do not occur in nature or science, because perfection never does. Maybe in philosophy. Or mathematics. But those aren't useful to us.

So you might have a system that is impossible to defeat on the theoretical level. A DNA-recognition system is an example of this -- literally nobody else in the world has your DNA, so nobody else should be able to open the lock. But in practice you can still do it... you just don't do it at that exact point. The Bad Guy doesn't try to somehow obtain the same DNA as you. That would be ridiculous. He attacks something else entirely.

Theory and practice dance around each other like a frickin' tango here. Best thing is probably to be purely pragmatic about it. "Everything" and "nothing" are dangerous terms.

[n2oah]

Even Rosengrens RKL 10 is pickable. No lock is unpickable, or unbypassable, shall we say?
If you can manipulate the locking mechanism(s), it is pickable.

Come back to me once you have found an unpickable lock, d_b

[digital_blue]

Come back to me once you have found an unpickable lock, d_b

Come back to me when you've picked it smarta@#. Or the Western Electric for that matter. I don't think the onus is on me to prove a lock can't (hasn't) been picked.

db

[Aqua]

Even Rosengrens RKL 10 is pickable. No lock is unpickable, or unbypassable, shall we say?
If you can manipulate the locking mechanism(s), it is pickable.

I think that it's true only in theory. When we add the inaccuracy of the human senses, the instability of his hand and other stuff that appears only in practise and not in theory. If there will somewhere arrise a person with infinite durability, no shaking hands, without any bodily functions that make him move, shake, or loose focus (like breathing, heartbeating, legs getting tired, etc.) then i would say it is true.

Unlike creating a perfect man - we (the people) are very close to creating a lock that would require such a man to pick it. What if the lock that db mentioned didn't have 10 levers but a 100? A 1000? And each and every one of those levers, when rised too high, would trigger a mechanism that blocks the lock to the point that only a certain voice-code with unlimited lenght and unlimited similarity to the tone recorded, would drop the lever back to place. Not possible to make? Why not? If people at a microchip factory were given a task like that, how long do you think it would take them? A week? A day? 12 hours? Would it be possible to pick it? Of corse. But not by human hands. I'm sure that there are real locks out there, that have the security level close to the lock i've just imagined. If someone thinks that a missle-silo has a 10 lever lock... uhmm... what can a person say besides 'bring lots and lots of thermite', just in case...

[n2oah]

Come back to me when you've picked it smarta@#. Or the Western Electric for that matter. I don't think the onus is on me to prove a lock can't (hasn't) been picked.

I'll make a video once chris b sends me his RKL 10 pick.

If people at a microchip factory were given a task like that, how long do you think it would take them?

It doesn't matter how many machines you have, or how much computing power you have. Modern technology isn't good enough. You cannot make something accurate to .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
(well, you get the idea)

[digital_blue]

It's also worth noting that I never made the claim that any lock is impossible to bypass. I simply said that, in any practical sense, there ARE locks that cannot be picked. As I stated when I first jumped in on this, I understand fully the theory that no lock is unpickable. I just want everyone to stop and consider that though this theory makes sense, its practice is just not true.

vector: Incidentally, I do agree with your sentiments. I just get tired of hearing this "no lock is unpickable' trash. I suspect that most of the touters of this mantra are not even particularly exceptional lockpickers. It's a great theory, but until someone shows me that they can defeat some of these monster locks in a reliable, repeatable manner, I will continue to hold to my assertion that the "no lock is unpickable" dogma is rubbish.

db

[n2oah]

It's also worth noting that I never made the claim that any lock is impossible to bypass. I simply said that, in any practical sense, there ARE locks that cannot be picked. As I stated when I first jumped in on this, I understand fully the theory that no lock is unpickable. I just want everyone to stop and consider that though this theory makes sense, its practice is just not true.

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!”

[digital_blue]

I'll make a video once chris b sends me his RKL 10 pick.

I'll be waiting with bated breath.

db

[n2oah]

I think you'll die if you hold your breath for that.

[eric343]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've scanned this thread looking for your questions about the tricirlce and I can't find them. If you posted in another thread, please PM me a link.

Regarding your stubborness, suit yourself. This idea that all locks can be picked, it's just a matter of time, is just nonsense to me.

"All locks can be picked, it's just a matter of time" is generally assumed to mean "All locks can be surreptitiously opened, it's just a matter of time."

While it may not be possible to *pick* the locks you mentioned in a classical sense, they all have pick/decode tools either extant, in development, or "it's just a matter of time..."

The only two locks I know of for which no surreptious entry has been concieved of as possible are the Mas-Hamilton X-0? series and the Evva MCS. The latter is only currently impregnable because of the engineering complexity needed to create the tool. (and I have a friend working on that one...)