one unpickable lock

[vector40]

And to the greater extent, that there's always SOME way into whatever the lock secures, whether you go after the lock, the mechanism, the building, the guy who has the key, whatever. "Pickable" is a bit of a simplistication.

[digital_blue]

And to the greater extent, that there's always SOME way into whatever the lock secures, whether you go after the lock, the mechanism, the building, the guy who has the key, whatever. "Pickable" is a bit of a simplistication.

No, I don't believe it is, and I think you miss my point entirely. Yes, we all know there are always alternate means of entry. But, I am speaking about picking locks. Pure and simple. Picking. Not bumping, not decoding, not drilling, not snapping, not thermite-ing. Picking. I really don't want to make this a battle over semantics. I really don't personally care that much whether people agree with my perspective, but I simply state that saying that no lock is unpickable is misleading, and IMO, inaccurate.

eric: What then on the Western Electric? Is there a decoder I'm not aware of? I am under the impression that such does not exist, but I could well be mistaken on that matter.

db

[vector40]

I'm not disagreeing with you, db. I'm just examining the expression a little.

[eric343]

And to the greater extent, that there's always SOME way into whatever the lock secures, whether you go after the lock, the mechanism, the building, the guy who has the key, whatever. "Pickable" is a bit of a simplistication.

eric: What then on the Western Electric? Is there a decoder I'm not aware of? I am under the impression that such does not exist, but I could well be mistaken on that matter.

db

I don't know of any tools for the Western Electric. It certainly seems possible to make one, though; more a question of resources and time than anything else. It's like the Rosengrens RKL10 in that regard (though it seems Chris Belcher may have a pick for the RKL10), not currently doable but not outside the range of possibility.

Keep in mind that tool development isn't driven by hobbyists saying "that's a cool lock" anymore than satellite card hacking was driven by hobbyists looking for a challenge. Most of the "real" stuff happens in the workshops of the professionals, driven by money from people with a need to actually get around these locks, just as the DSS thing was driven by Canadian companies that hired freakishly expensive reverse-engineering firms.

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule; bump-keys and PGM's smart-card emulator are classic examples. But rarely are these exceptions particularly complex or difficult to implement. As hobbyists we're well-equipped to see simple and elegant ways to exploit security flaws, but we don't have the multi-million dollar machine shops and experience needed to design the really complex stuff. (case in point -- the last I heard, my friend was talking about superconducting PCB traces for his Evva MCS tool.)

Therefore, I think it's impossible to say a lock is "unpickable" when the people who are equipped to properly find this out haven't tried to pick it. It's rather like concluding that a new airplane design is unflyable because you and I can't fly it -- even if I had a pilot's license, I'd let a professional test pilot draw that conclusion.

This is why I cite the Evva MCS and Mas-Hamilton locks -- both have been subject to attack by the "experts."

[eric343]

No, I don't believe it is, and I think you miss my point entirely. Yes, we all know there are always alternate means of entry. But, I am speaking about picking locks. Pure and simple. Picking. Not bumping, not decoding, not drilling, not snapping, not thermite-ing. Picking.
db

I've always understood the saying to be either an extension or predecessor to the idea that "the only truly secure computer is one still in its original box, unplugged, powered off, in a vault, and with you sitting on top holding a shotgun."

[digital_blue]

No, I don't believe it is, and I think you miss my point entirely. Yes, we all know there are always alternate means of entry. But, I am speaking about picking locks. Pure and simple. Picking. Not bumping, not decoding, not drilling, not snapping, not thermite-ing. Picking.
db

I've always understood the saying to be either an extension or predecessor to the idea that "the only truly secure computer is one still in its original box, unplugged, powered off, in a vault, and with you sitting on top holding a shotgun."

Yes, I understand that perspective. Really, this all just boils down to semantics, which is what I was trying to avoid. Again, I just feel its misleading to make the claim that no lock is unpickable. I suppose, if it would settle the nerves of some, I would concede that many locks are "virtually unpickable" or "practically unpickable" or some variant of this sentiment. Although, it does remind me of the whole "Mac OS X is virtually virus free" argument that still gets my shackles up.

Regarding the DSS hacking, I'm not sure that I agree with your account of history there. There was a well-known card hacker based out of Winnipeg that, in a lot of ways, led the way in hacking the HU cards, at least, if I'm to believe the stories I've read. Though perhaps a bit more than a hopeful hobbyist (as he did this for profit, and lots of it), he was pretty far from being a "freakishly expensive reverse-engineering firm". If you're curious, do some google-fu on "dean love" or Court of Queen's Bench file number "C1 00-01-20467"

Cheers.

db

[eric343]

The A.C. Hobbs of DSS?

[digital_blue]

Hehehe.. perhaps.

[mickgr]

my father in law has one these on his shed of all things . no identifiable features. his father in law who was from poland made it himself. if you dont know its on the other side of the door then i suppose youd struggle. not unpickable though , just a bit tricky to engineer the correct size of tool to open it , lots of trial and error me thinks.

[NKT]

I think I could beat the Western Electric lock, and I'm after a sample or two. I can't believe that you guys haven't been beating these things for years...

As for "unpickable" it is a level of finesse. 12 months ago, beating an average cylinder lock was easy for me, but levers were something I couldn't do, so I went off and did a great course, got the hang of it, and I've been practising since. I'm sure 99.99% of people on this planet couldn't beat the easiest British Standard lock with the right tools to save their lives. I know I can now, and I have been able to for 6 months. However, going from those lesser locks up to the Chubb 3G series is a huge step. Yet, three days ago, I beat it once, quite fast. I tried again for another 8 or 9 hours solid, over two days. Didn't get it again. Then, two nights ago, I changed the lever pack, after drilling a hole in the side and working out what was wrong. I beat it in 30 minutes. I swapped the levers again and covered the hole, and beat it in under 15.

Suddenly, an "unpickable" lock is within reach. The next step up is to the biggie, hand picking the Chubb 3K series. 7 detainers, with an anti-pick top and bottom of each of those levers. So hard that last time I tried, even with a hole to cheat through, I couldn't get a single lever to set.

Yet there are some, on this site even, who routinely beat this lock in ten minutes! (And I'm not talking about the £££ bit of kit you can get, but with, essentially, two bits of wire.)

I sat at the Dutch Open '05 and saw my (quite good) cylinder picking get blown out of the water by the eventual winner. When I faced him, he beat my time on a good 2* lock by a full minute, nearly a third faster. In the final, he beat all the others, including Barry Wels, and opened some brutal hard locks in under 4 minutes. In fact, he beat all four locks, site unseen, in under 4 minutes each. No-one else got them all open, and no-one was faster. Dr. Torsten won by a mile.

If you don't know, his reward was a mounted lock, with a special key design that cannot be bumped or copied, and 21(?) locking pins on three axes, from EVVA. Whether he picked that yet, I have no idea!

So, "unpickable" very much depends on the circumstances and level of practise. Lock type plays a big part. Torsten was one of many who had no real idea that we use lever locks on doors in the UK, and my primer on them was well received.

I also beat an "unpickable" dual keyed substation lever lock in under 30 seconds once I had worked it out (having never seen one before) - shame it took about 2 hours to work it out! The assembled cream of the Dutch & German lockpickers knew someone who beat one once... I assure you that it was easy to beat, and most of the NDE UK lockies here would have had no more trouble than I.

If anyone's got a Western Electric, in either 6 or 10 lever (I suspect they upped the levers due to the bypass the "man of legend" worked out. I don't think it stopped him.) PM me.

[EGOOT247]

I think I could beat the Western Electric lock, and I'm after a sample or two.

While reading this, I was thinking the exact same thing (I WANT ONE!!!!)... I hope they are easy to find.
They sound VERY interesting...