Clarification Of Vermont Lock Pick Laws

[Winston_Smith]

OK so i looked up the vermont law in the law thread, but i'm a little confused.
As i take it i can have them in my possesion and use them, alsong as it's not for illegal uses. (burglary, opening stuff that ain't mine) but i want to make sure before i'm tossed into a cell and meet my new boyfriend... Bruno.

Vermont Law-------------

A person who manufactures or knowingly has in his possession any engine, machine, tool or implement, adapted and designed for cutting through, forcing or breaking open any building, room, vault, safe or other depository, in order to steal therefrom money or other property, knowing the same to be adapted and designed for such purpose, with intent to use or employ the same therefor, shall be imprisoned not more than twenty years or fined not more than $10,000.00, or both.

Amended 1971, No. 199 (Adj. Sess.), § 15; 1981, No. 223 (Adj. Sess.), § 23.

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So it's best to keep the picks out of sight and out of mind, cause i will have to prove that i had no intentions of useing them illegally.

[vector40]

Yes, that's about it. Like in most states, it's only illegal with a combination of possession and intent (mens rea). But you're also correct that it'd be wiser to avoid the situation entirely by just not having them on you.

If it goes to court, it'll be the responsibility of the prosecutor to establish intent, not yours. But if it's a cop trying to decide whether to bring you in, you'll be the one explaining why you aren't a burglar, so at least have a good explanation... you're correct that the legal process is no fun even when you're innocent.

[hzatorsk]

...If it goes to court, it'll be the responsibility of the prosecutor to establish intent, not yours....

Be very careful with this advice. Some states, including Virginia (which I am familar with) offer the prosecution a 'prima facie' evidence clause which essentially means... they have PROVEN their case by virtue of how the law is written. As it is defined in the code, only a licensed dealer has affirmative defense to a felony charge.

I strongly suggest you consider a professional legal advice (from a criminal defense lawyer) as 'intent' may be defined elsewhere in your code and may possibly inclusively cover the section you quoted.

(BTW: We've had the 'intent' argument here before.)

Virginia... for example defines it:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... od+18.2-94

Virginia Code: § 18.2-94. Possession of burglarious tools, etc.

If any person have in his possession any tools, implements or outfit, with intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny, upon conviction thereof he shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. The possession of such burglarious tools, implements or outfit by any person other than a licensed dealer, shall be prima facie evidence of an intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-87; 1960, c. 358; 1970, c. 587; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

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[DeadlyHunter]

hzatorsk that was a great sum up, also to the users in other states, even if your state doesnt have this implementation in regards to the law (prima facie) that does not mean that the court will ever be on your side, leaving the responsibility of the prosecutor to establish intent. In a real court case if you are there in front of the judge, the judge already thinks your guilty for the most part, and it is your responsibility to prove that your not guilty. I have been involved in many court cases where the judge simply thought my client was guilty just for being there.

one of the best things you can do to avoid this would be to establish/join a lockpicking/locksmithing club or group and carry a offical card with you, this will only help you with a cop if your not doing something suspicious. Anyway just my 3 cents.

[vector40]

Thanks, hza. This is why I tell people to check their state laws themselves It's different all over.

The internet is not a lawyer! The internet is not a lawyer! The internet is not a lawyer!

[Outolintu]

shall be imprisoned not more than twenty years or fined not more than $10,000.00, or both.

...In Finland one might have to sit even 14 years (even less) for murder, so I think your law is kinda strict...

Funny that the are kind of saying, that 20 years of jail is same as 10 000 dollrs in fines

[scientist]

Winston, the wonder I have found of vermont laws is that they basically read "If your not messing with anyone else, its cool"

The same law applies to concealed firearms, in that so long as they are not concealed for you to shoot someone your fine

-sCi

[Dewey1384]

When I was looking at getting my pick set in Ohio, luckily I had a Columbus Police Sgt. friend. I asked him about the laws as everyone was stating "criminal tools", what he told me was this; if you are caught in the act of trying to break into (or pick a lock) for unlawfull reasons, then it's criminal tools. He also told me the criminal statues carry 2x the punishment for those crimes. And one more thing, he also let me know that a screwdriver, tire iron, or even a brick can be classified as a criminal tool as it can be used to gain unlawful entry into a home or vehicle. As this isn't an issue for me, I really don't care who sees me with them, but I don't like to make people uneasy either. So I tend to keep them out of sight but if they see them, they see them - nothing to hide because there's nothing illegal.

[raimundo]

In more reasonable states, intent is proven by past convictions for burglary, but the technique is to charge you, schedule a trial, then try to get you to plead guilty, to a lesser charge they will reschedule the trial several times to try to work on you, don't let that shake you, it just means they know they don't have a case and are afraid the judge will just throw it out. it takes little to arraign you, but you can back them down at a trial. Do not plead guilty if you are not guilty of the charge, it will mean that you are thereafter forever guilty of that and any further charges they should want to try in the future. be sure to do your own research on the elements of the crime, and precedents in other cases, you do this at the law school of the nearest university or the courthouse law library, it will take some time, you will have to learn to use the index and find the current law, do not expect a lawyer to really represent you like they do for the rich fraudsters of enron, there are things the lawyer won't even tell you, such as getting charges expunged after dismissal. to get a lawyer to work for you, you need to push hard, I won't talk to a lawyer without electronic recording, they will weasel after they sell you out, and you need to have a tape & transcript to prove what they actually said when you trusted them.

[Lock Jockey]

Thanks, hza. This is why I tell people to check their state laws themselves It's different all over.

How do you check the laws online? I've been looking all over but I haven't been able to find a site that will allow me to search through the Arizona laws.

[Dewey1384]

Ohio has the ORC or Ohio Revised Code, I see signs everywhere like towing, ORC 34.56.78 maybe yours is ARC. I found this website with a quick search http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp

Finding the exact laws is the trouble.

[jabraham]

If your state licenses, if possible get a license. In California there is no experience requirement. You get fingeprinted and your record gets checked, then you are a licensed locksmith. BY DEFINITION a licensed locksmith is not prosecutable for possession of burglary tools. Removes all the uncertainty.

If your state does not license, then you need evidence that you are a bona fide locksmith (whatever that means). It means at a minimum that you have a legitimate interest in the trade and possess house breaking tools for that reason.

[vmikulich]

[quote="jabraham"]If your state licenses, if possible get a license. In California there is no experience requirement. You get fingeprinted and your record gets checked, then you are a licensed locksmith. BY DEFINITION a licensed locksmith is not prosecutable for possession of burglary tools. Removes all the uncertainty.

If your state does not license, then you need evidence that you are a bona fide locksmith (whatever that means). It means at a minimum that you have a legitimate interest in the trade and possess house breaking tools for that reason.[/quote]


You can check California law here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

PC 466 is the specific section if you care to read it: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisg ... n=retrieve


Arizona laws are found here:
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp