Decoding Technique

[Exodus5000]

I was re-pinning some locks the other day and it dawned on me that it might be possible to decode a key for a lock without ever picking it. Assuming that all the top pins are of the same length (like in most cheap locks, like kwikset).

If one new the length of a pin stack spring when fully compressed, could you not then determine the length of the bottom key pin by using a wire probe and fully compressing the pin stack and reading the length on the wire probe? From this figure you could then cut to a code a working key. You could even have a set of graduated wires with the various pin lengths marked on them.

It seems far more likely I'm re-discovering the wheel here though.

[Omikron]

It seems far more likely I'm re-discovering the wheel here though.

Yep...

Keep thinking, though!.

[Chucklz]

Many (most?) manufacturers use compensated drivers, so this would make things a touch more difficult, but if you know the lock was definately pinned according to factory specs, and you knew exactly what the specs were, you might be able to get along.

[raimundo]

I like the concept, but of course, as you say, it works on the kind of locks that are easy to pick. so it would only be useful for the keymaking if it turned out to be faster than opening the lock then dissasembling it to make a key. but the concept will probably be useful someday in another context or with a new wrinkle.

[Treeson]

Hello,

I'm new to this site and thought this would be as good time as any to start contributing. I have been a 'leacher' for at least 2 months and visit almost daily and am compltely fascinated by the wealth of knowledge presented on this site. I am a hobbyist lock enthusiast from Martha's Vineyard, MA. I'm in high school and will be getting an apprenticeship at a local locksmith's shop shortly.

Anyway, on the topic of the original post. I have thought about about this idea frequently in the past and I am still in the process of attempting to design a tool to utilize this method. I am thinking that if you had a tool similar to the Sputnik (sp) you would be able to fully compress all of the pin stacks and then this would essentially be the key combination. If you lowered all of these pins while haveing the seperate lengths locked in place, you could bring them all to the sheer line and the lock would be compromised. I have been thinking about various methods of doing this, and I figure that if there were multiple adapters for differnet lengths of pin stacks and different keyways, this would essentially be a tool capable of opening any common lock practically instantly as long as the top pins are all the same length. This could be an effective tool for unexpierienced locksmiths and police officers, and with the proper design could even display the correct combination to cut the key.

Sorry that this is so long winded, and for any typos. Its just me kind of rambling about an idea Ive been having. Tell me what you all think of it.

[Shrub]

John Falle has a tool simular to this and its discussd in the advanced part, it doesnt involve over compressing the springs by over lifting the pins (which can damage the lock) but uses a differant method.

I think due to the nature of the tool those of us in the know are keeping it from the public forums as it belongs in the advanced section and i would suggest we wait until a mod comes on to decide if you are all told how the tool works.

Mods or Admin?

[Chucklz]

I think enough has been said for now. Lets let the other mods see this and we will discuss it.

[Tetley]

I think it may depend on the lock/spring length quality and as always how much corrosion/wear the pins and barrel have

[greyman]

Not to transgress the line to the Advanced forum, but aren't we just talking about "Hooke's Law", that is, the force on a spring is proportional to the amount of compression on it. Hence measure the force and you have a rough estimate of its compression, hence the length of the pin stack. Problem is that the top pins might not all be the same length, as a previous contributor pointed out.

[vector40]

This has come up before in the advanced forums (both the "decode the lengths" variation and the "lower the stacks to the shearline" one). I believe the tentative conclusion was that it's a cool idea, but the practically speaking would almost never be both feasible and worthwhile, considering difficulties such as the potential for damage, different pin spacings, and most especially compensated top pins, which would nullify its use in the most relevant situations, that being high-security locks.

[Shrub]

Falles tool doesnt work off the springs at all and is very good at what it does.

As its available in a commercial catalogue (German) and appears to be no longer restricted i dont see any problem in saying how the tool works as there is a lot of other factors that have to be considered and worked out before you could make one for yourself, that said the sputniks are advanced subjects even though making of them isnt a noob project,

Ill ask Db if i/we can at least spill the beans o how the falle tool works and go from there, it will either end up in a locked thread or an imformative one i guess.

[Varjeal]

Let's leave that discussion for the advanced forum, but to give this thread a slight detour....

Have any of you heard of sight reading?

Sight reading is most commonly used with wafer-style locks. Generally the lock is picked to a partial open position, then a strong light and magnification are used to view the wafers inside the lock. Using the locksmiths knowledge, d&s charts, etc...a skilled locksmith can quickly decode a lock without removing it all.

Some factory coded locks have the bitting stamped right on the wafer itself, and a newly-pinned pin tumbler lock may have original lab-style colored pins, allowing the locksmith to make an educated guess as to the length/bitting of the position.

[p1ckf1sh]

Falles tool [...] As its available in a commercial catalogue (German) and appears to be no longer restricted i dont see any problem in saying how the tool works

Hmmm. I thought all tools made by Falle are more or less restricted?! The official german distributor (MSC Hamburg) says in his recent catalogue that all products made by Falle are only sold to certified people.

There was no mention of any exceptions. To me that sounded like Falle restricts everything.

Might be wrong though....

[Shrub]

Sorry your kind of right there, falle resticts his tools rather like tobias does his lss, theres tools available to locksmiths and theres ones available to goverment agencies, its those that are the special tools

Yes varjeal, i use the method you describe sometimes with mortice locks, it takes a lot of knowledge of that particular lock and its internals but can be a good time saver, im looking for a better scope to do lever locks but yes its a good skillful way of doing it.

[Gordon Airporte]

If this is the Falle decoder that uses very, very thin wire(s) to [do something we're still being cagey about], it's already been discussed outside of the advanced forums - I wouldn't know about it otherwise. Unfortunately I can't remember where.