impressioning question

by **E-Mind** » 22 Jun 2005 18:18

Is it possible to have a special key made that had detachable stack of "pin lifters" - i.e. a lego-like dedisn were you would impression with the key where all the "pin-lifters" are on - and remove the ones that get marked (could smoke the top "pin-lifter" for easy identification) - wouldn't this allow for very quick impressioning?

by **fixer** » 22 Jun 2005 19:34

This is basically the technique used when impressioning with clippers.

You see where the marks appear and cut to the next depth in those places. Insert and repeat untill the key works.

Any sort of key that has removable pieces probably wouldn't have enough lateral strength to make a mark on the key blade.

by **Grudge** » 22 Jun 2005 21:36

Another difficulty is that the amount of material you need to take off varies with the maker of the lock (that is, how much shorter or longer a pin gets from one size to the next varies by kind of lock). For instance, Kwikset bottom pins sizes are .172, .195, .218, .241, .264, .287 while Schlage are .165, .180, .195, .210, 225, .240, .255, .270, etc.

by **zekeo** » 22 Jun 2005 22:28

A similar idea seems to have been put into practice. This is a quote from safeventures.com:

System Capabilities
The Pin Lock Foil Systems a new and highly user friendly method of opening certain Pin Tumbler Mechanisms. The system is very quick and simple to use and also very inexpensive considering the effectiveness with which it works. The system works on a self impressioning technique and as a result of using the system the lock will open and an approximate code can usually be determined. The system and the result of this process once the lock has been opened and the tool has been removed can be seen below. This resulting tool can frequently be inserted into the lock enabling it to be opened several times before the procedure has to be repeated.

Anyone know anything more about this method?

by **digital_blue** » 22 Jun 2005 22:49

Sounds like the Falle foil impressioning system to me. Check out www.security.org for info on that system.

db

by **Grudge** » 22 Jun 2005 22:58

The foil method literally uses a thin metal foil placed over a 'comb'. As the impressioning process occurs the foil actually collapses (just imagine if it would leave a mark on brass, it could press down the foil instead). Once the pin reaches shear point, it stops pressing on the foil. Slowly all of the foil segments reach the correct height and the lock opens.

by **davidgjr** » 8 Jul 2005 11:32

You can also do it with a code machine or space and depth keys

by **p1ckf1sh** » 26 Mar 2006 9:12

Grudge wrote:Another difficulty is that the amount of material you need to take off varies with the maker of the lock (that is, how much shorter or longer a pin gets from one size to the next varies by kind of lock). For instance, Kwikset bottom pins sizes are .172, .195, .218, .241, .264, .287 while Schlage are .165, .180, .195, .210, 225, .240, .255, .270, etc.

And that's even a linear progression. I don't know about the US, but here in Europe, at least in Germany some manufacturer use non-linear progression in pin sizes or have up to 18 different heights (with a progression of IIRC 0.2mm).

It's a nice idea, but nothing that could be made DIY style.

by **p1ckf1sh** » 27 Mar 2006 8:33

Grudge wrote:The foil method literally uses a thin metal foil placed over a 'comb'. As the impressioning process occurs the foil actually collapses (just imagine if it would leave a mark on brass, it could press down the foil instead). Once the pin reaches shear point, it stops pressing on the foil. Slowly all of the foil segments reach the correct height and the lock opens.

I first read about foil impressioning just two days ago, he I am a newbie. Read the impressioning in a nutshell FAQ on here before, so the process is clear to me. But the foil thing sparked interest, did some research on security.org and it all seems logical and straightforward.

But one question remains? Why does this work? I mean, Falle uses self-adhesive foil of a certain size (what was it again? 30-50microns?), and in some thread someone stated that this is about the thickness of regular kitchen aluminium foil. So, this stuff is attached to the comb, which has a few really narrow teeth/pins sticking out, forming a straight line over the combpick pins. By all laws of physics the foil should rip, shouldn't it? It can't move because of the adhesive back sticking to the combpick. The straight line the foil forms from comb pin to comb pin is then stretched. I never heard that alu foil is flexible. It will just rip. so, to form the pits for the bottom pins, something has to give way to make room for the pits.

Where is my thought mistake? Or is the foil used something special?

by **Shrub** » 27 Mar 2006 9:07

Well the sticky back keeps the foil together a bit better and also it does stretch as do all metals to smome degree, the forces in a pin lock arent that great and so no problems occur as such but you do have to quite often raise the pins up out of the way with another tool while inserting and removeing the tool.

Get a piece of foil and put it on a table or somthing then write on it with a pencil, carefully,
You will see if you turn it over that you can see where you have indentated the foil and thats just with a blunt pencil.

by **Lock Jockey** » 27 Mar 2006 18:53

zekeo wrote:A similar idea seems to have been put into practice. This is a quote from safeventures.com:
System Capabilities
The Pin Lock Foil Systems a new and highly user friendly method of opening certain Pin Tumbler Mechanisms. The system is very quick and simple to use and also very inexpensive considering the effectiveness with which it works. The system works on a self impressioning technique and as a result of using the system the lock will open and an approximate code can usually be determined. The system and the result of this process once the lock has been opened and the tool has been removed can be seen below. This resulting tool can frequently be inserted into the lock enabling it to be opened several times before the procedure has to be repeated.

Anyone know anything more about this method?

It sounds like it is talking about Sputnik.
Check out the links for a video and picture.
http://www.tresoroeffnung.de/schulungen.php?seite=8
http://www.toool.nl/5h-sputnik.jpg

by **Chucklz** » 27 Mar 2006 19:03

The Foil system != sputnik.

by **Treeson** » 27 Mar 2006 20:31

Hey Lock Jockey,

The foil system being discussed is a tool sold by John Falle available http://www.safeventures.com/general/pin_lock_foil_system.htm

Sorry if this shouldn't be posted because of advanced information etc.

Cheers,

Treeson

by **p1ckf1sh** » 28 Mar 2006 6:36

Shrub wrote:Get a piece of foil and put it on a table or somthing then write on it with a pencil, carefully,
You will see if you turn it over that you can see where you have indentated the foil and thats just with a blunt pencil.

Well, yes, all right and fine, I was just thinking that the distance between the pins being ~4mm and the distance some pin might push upwards (maybe 2-3mm) might be too much indentation/flexing for the foil to take, Upon reviewing the pictures on security.org I noticed that the foil is not even meant to stay intact, but indeed rips apart to move into the valleys between the comb teeth.

Should have looked closely before asking dumb qustions.

Now, I might even have found something better to use than aluminium foil. As soon as I manage to produce a comb that is even enough for trying this, I will let you guys know if I could get it to work with either aluminium foil or the plastic tape (0,08mm! extends to more than 250% of original size! almost stays there after extension, because the multiple layers of this stuff seem to interact into some kind of binding/adhesion when they are stretched together)...

by **sams choice** » 28 Mar 2006 12:12

I have been trying to make this system and i am having alot of difficulty. The main problem is, i dont really have the right tools to make the tools used to do it. ahah situation irony. I have been using a hacksaw blade, ofcourse, and the metel off the top of a contact case. I applied adhesive to the metel and stuck it on there, and it works to an extent but then falls apart quickly.

impressioning question

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