European hardware -lever locks, profile cylinders specific for European locks. European lock picks and European locks.
by p1ckf1sh » 23 Mar 2006 8:54
Being the newbie I am I am currently doing a lot of reading and information gathering. I stumbled over the following diagram of an FCV (german manufacture) eurocylinder with an additional locking element, called "SP-System"..
1. Is that what is sometimes referred to as a "sidebar"?
2. If yes: I seem to recall reading about active and passive sidebars. Which one is this?
3. Actually, how does it work? I mean, what does it do or what does it prevent from happening in respect of keeping the lock locked?
4. Does it compromise regular lockpicking methods by not even allowing the slightest rotation (for tensioning/binding bins during picking)?
I have pondered this in my mind for a few hours, but I can't seem to get it.
My first idea was that this thingy somehow prevents pin manipulation when the balls are not moved. But looking at the key you see that there are three notches. So basically if the pin was locked by the balls you would not even get the key because the pin would not go down.
Second idea is that the position of balls in locked state (i.e. with no key in) is the position that enables rotation. So the notches in the key only allow the balls to settle back into rest position after the key is in all the way, therefore when the lock is being picked they don't pose a problem because the pick will most likely not interact with them too much. That would mean the system only works against attacks with "illegal" keys such as illicit copies without the proper notches and keys made by molds, impressioning-made keys or keys made up after decoding the picked lock, and maybe bumpkeys (depending on the bitting, sometimes the bump key can be removed after the lock was bumped).
Third idea is that the balls need to be moved a little bit, the amount is dictated by the notches. Either in rest or in fully moved position the balls will keep the lock from rotating. That would make the most sense, but because of the alignment and position of the balls I cannot imagine a system that would prevent rotation. Sure, with a dimple-less key the balls could be pushed into a dimple of the plug housing and prevent rotation. But how should they be able to prevent rotation when not pushed?
Can anyone shed some light on that for me?
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p1ckf1sh
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by Shrub » 23 Mar 2006 9:22
Thats not a side bar, a side bar is an actual bar not balls, ive not seen this lock before so ill have to study it.
On first glance it appears that if the wrong pin is set first the balls have nowhere to go on the pin next to it and that pin wont lift, quite how the key biting gets around that im not sure.
I dont like the look of the keyway though and im guessing thats the more complicated thing to get around than balls on top of the pins.
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by p1ckf1sh » 23 Mar 2006 11:02
Shrub wrote:Thats not a side bar, a side bar is an actual bar not balls,
Thanks for clarifying that. On first glance it appears that if the wrong pin is set first the balls have nowhere to go on the pin next to it and that pin wont lift, quite how the key biting gets around that im not sure.
My bad, I intended to add another pic of the key.  As you can see the notches are quite a bit upwards of the bitting, assuming the shown key has some deep (8/9) bittings. I'd link to the actual page, but the site won't display the actual page link in the adress bar, all framed and stuff. You can go to www.fcv-cylinder.de and click "Produkte" in the side menu, then look for "Ein Plus ein Sicherheit" and click on "weiter" a few lines down. There is a thumbnail of the lock cutaway diagram as well. The description is mostly marketing hogwash, they say an unlocking movement / rotation is only possible with a key that has the correct bitting and the notches, phew, who would have guessed. I dont like the look of the keyway though and im guessing thats the more complicated thing to get around than balls on top of the pins.
Yeah, for me this is more or less a theoretical and mental game. I don't have a lock like that, but a friend of mine has one in his apartment door. Looking at the manufacturer I noticed I had never heard of them, and this is how I stumbled over the picture while surfing for info. Once I know for sure that I can't destroy anything I will maybe ask him if I can try to pick it.
Actually, this heavily warded profile you mention is not much of a problem in the case of the actual lock I saw. The general style of these profiles are made for lock systems (like in apartment houses) and is meant to prevent people from making illicit key copies, because the profile and spare keys can only be obtained from the management of the apartment building, who in turn have to order them from the manufacturer.
The warding shown in the picture is something like an extreme example. Look at all the tiny wards, they would weaken a regular key very much. Because of that keyway by itself, minus the wards, is really wide and actually almost rectangular. In my friends case the keyway opening looks like a EVVA 3KS, because he only has two opposing wards in the very bottom of the keyway and two on the top, which are a little bit offset. The rest of the keyway is wide open and screamed "invitation" to me. You could basically get 80% of all (pin tumbler) keys into that keyway and use them like a lifter pick.
Actually, there are no model markings visible on his lock, so we don't even know if this version of the lock incorporates this "SP-System" which is sold as a bonus add-on. Maybe the guys were cheap and saved on it. I should visit him tonight and find out if I can feel the balls somewhere.
But still, the question is in my mind - how is this supposed to work. Anyone else got some speculations?[/img]
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p1ckf1sh
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by jordyh » 23 Mar 2006 11:24
Adding (or not adding) balls to the lock will not do much to the locking mechanism considering picking, but it will help with keys.
It gives room for more combinations.
Bumping this lock, for instance, is only possible, when all possible holes are cut in the side, so all possible balls can match the key.
It´s just an attempt of a manufacturer to make more combinations possible.
This system is often found in master key plans.
Yours,
Jordy
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by p1ckf1sh » 23 Mar 2006 12:10
jordyh wrote:Adding (or not adding) balls to the lock will not do much to the locking mechanism considering picking, but it will help with keys. It gives room for more combinations. Bumping this lock, for instance, is only possible, when all possible holes are cut in the side, so all possible balls can match the key.
So, how actually do the balls affect the locking mechanism? If I had a bump key that had all the material removed where the balls are, so the balls rest in idle position, what would happen when bumping? The pins would go to shearline, but the lock won't turn? Why? Or would the pins be locked by some mechanism and not move at all? How? I mean, you say it does not much about regular picking, but will give more combinations. So once the lock is picked, it will turn, regardless of what happens to the balls? And if this is true, what about the balls? They are useless then, because if they don't enable or disable the locking mechanism... It´s just an attempt of a manufacturer to make more combinations possible.
Well, they are marketing it as an optional security feature, which is standard in some of their series and can be had as an add-on for all their cylinders, even for single-keyed locks. I am not saying you are wrong, but I have the odd feeling that there is more to it.
...still puzzled...
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by Chucklz » 23 Mar 2006 15:00
I think Master lock offers a similar cylinder
http://commercial.masterlock.com/pdf/ml_key_control.PDF
The balls add little to pick resistance, but allow you to have keys that are less easily duplicated, even if blanks that will fit into the keyway are available. You could request a unique keyway/ball combination for your exclusive use.
Perhaps you could even use these in masterkeying. One group of cylinders would have the balls in the first position, another in the second, and another with them in the third.
A simple one level master key system could be used all three groups of cylinders, as the balls would prevent a correctly bitted key to be used if the ball cut is incorrect. Depending on the ball cuts on the master key(s) you could end up with a fairly complex system:
GGM: all three cuts
GM1 : Cut 1 and 2
GM2: Cut 2 and 3
GM3: Cut 1 and 3
M1: Cut 1
M2: Cut 2
M3: Cut 3
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by p1ckf1sh » 23 Mar 2006 15:58
Chucklz wrote:The balls add little to pick resistance, but allow you to have keys that are less easily duplicated, even if blanks that will fit into the keyway are available. You could request a unique keyway/ball combination for your exclusive use.
That's the 2nd reply going into that direction, and I assume it to be correct, thanks everyone for your input. Yet, I have not completely grasped exactly how the balls affect the lock or the unlocking procedure. Maybe this is so obvious that you pros think it is not wort mentioning, but mind you, I took up my interest in locks in mid-February, so... Let me get to my original posting that started this thread, the second theory I developed about their function is this: Second idea is that the position of balls in locked state (i.e. with no key in) is the position that enables rotation. So the notches in the key only allow the balls to settle back into rest position after the key is in all the way, therefore when the lock is being picked they don't pose a problem because the pick will most likely not interact with them too much. [...]
Is this halfway correct? So the balls do actually exactly nothing when the lock is picked? Their only security gain is the protection against improper keys, because these keys move the balls and push them into a dimple in the plug housing, thereby preventing the plug from rotating.
Is this system used by other manufacturers as well? How are the balls held up? By the pins? Is there a risk of the balls rolling out of their cavity once the pin is manipulated? , so many questions. I wish I had one of these cylinders to dremel open.
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p1ckf1sh
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by Chucklz » 23 Mar 2006 16:46
I am not sure how the balls are held in place. In the one master lock diagram in that PDF, the balls do not appear to lock the cylinder in place when there is no key inserted.
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by Shrub » 23 Mar 2006 17:19
I rushed this morning so didnt just realise the balls are on top of the pins as in the first to the key i thought they were next to the springs for some reason, ill look at it again in a differant light now, i dont think it will be a anti drilling system but may be some sort of anti pull system im not sure.
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by greyman » 24 Mar 2006 6:45
I've been looking at this for a couple of minutes and I have to admit, from just the two drawings, I can't figure out what the pairs of ball bearings do. More specifically, I don't see why you need 2 ball bearings in each profile control position. The same effect could be achieved and is achieved in very many other European systems with single profile control balls.
Looking at the drawings, you can see that the balls are positioned roughly in positions 1 3 and 5 but not exactly in line with the pins. The outer ball in each pair engages a channel in the cylinder, so this will push the pair inwards when the plug turns. This means that the key has to have side dimples in the right spots. In other words it's plain profile control. A workaround is to bit the key in all possible profile control positions. It's a cheap way to avoid making different plug broaches for master keying. Hard to believe their 5 pin cylinder is VdS class B rated. It looks like it would snap off rather easily.
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by p1ckf1sh » 24 Mar 2006 9:39
greyman wrote:The same effect could be achieved and is achieved in very many other European systems with single profile control balls.
So these have only one large ball for every dimple? Are there additional springs to cover the space to the plug housing? If not, the balls must be pretty big? Looking at the drawings, you can see that the balls are positioned roughly in positions 1 3 and 5 but not exactly in line with the pins. The outer ball in each pair engages a channel in the cylinder, so this will push the pair inwards when the plug turns. This means that the key has to have side dimples in the right spots. In other words it's plain profile control.
Dang, now I finally got it and found my thinking mistake. I looked at the picture in the wrong way, or misinterpreted it. I thought the balls were positioned to be on the left and right side of the key, with the pins in the middle. But they are positioned to make ball 1 push ball 2 into the channel when no dimple is present...
Does anyone have an educated guess how the balls are held in place? I think they might rest on the pin tips, but I can also imagine that they are placed in a cavity that only enables almost one half or less of the ball to stick out, that would certainly be enough for the profile checking, the dimple in the key ain't look THAT deep. But I can also imagine that are "loose" and possibly might roll out, because they might just rely on the pin tips to hold them up.
Anyway, to all posters, thanks for sharing your thoughts and putting up with my questions. I was almost a bit afraid of taking the newb battering ram up my #@*% because the question might have been so obvious. But I just couldn't get it worked out on my own...
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by greyman » 24 Mar 2006 12:47
Sorry - I meant "pins" when I said "balls". I guess I was worried about saying balls and in a Freudian slip I said "balls"
What I meant was that many EU lock cylinders use profile control pins in various configurations.
Re: the chambers for the profile balls, without having an FCV in front of me I would say either the chambers are not drilled completely into the keyway so the ball bearing rests on a lip, or they are drilled all the way (more likely) and the wards in the keyway prevent them from falling into the keyway. The key may have a bevel on the right side to pick them up as it is inserted.
Seriously though, this lock is a really tiny variation on the many existing pin tumbler locks with profile control pins. I wonder if the inventors had the balls to try to patent it, though it doesn't seem worthy of one!
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by mh » 5 Apr 2006 8:46
One mistery with that remains:
FCV claims that the locking elements (apparently the balls) are "federnd gelagert", which means that there should be springs.
Which are of course not shown in the picture, hence the mistery...
On my old EVVA MCS I have found 2 sizes of balls: Big balls where the key should have a dimple, if not, the balls block and the key won't turn; and small balls, where the key should not have a dimple, otherwise the balls don't prevent a spring loaded pin from 'catching' the plug in a 30 degree position  Nice system...
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by p1ckf1sh » 5 Apr 2006 9:53
mh wrote:One mistery with that remains: FCV claims that the locking elements (apparently the balls) are "federnd gelagert", which means that there should be springs. Which are of course not shown in the picture, hence the mistery...
I agree that the picture is incomplete or at least misleading... But they claim that these locking elements prevent rotation of the picked lock (Nachschließsicherheit) and makes picking itself harder (Abtastsicherheit). So, even if the balls were spring-loaded, in their current position they could do nothing more than simple profile checking, and AFAIK this does not really interfere with picking or with rotating the picked lock. mh wrote:and small balls, where the key should not have a dimple, otherwise the balls don't prevent a spring loaded pin from 'catching' the plug in a 30 degree position  Nice system...
Maybe it is exactly this system. So, there might be additional pins in the plug housing (not shown) that are aligned with the balls. The "locking elements" term mentioned in their description applies to these pins, not the balls itself. If a picked lock with no key inserted is rotated through some amount of degrees the additional pins (locking elements, spring-loaded and aligned "parallel to the keyway" as their description states) line up with the ball drill holes, spring force pushes the ball up because no key prevents the ball movement and the locking element can move into the plug and lock it.
Depending on how the ball holes are manufactured (complete drill or not) this could actually mean it is a "destructive" prevention, as seen in some of the high-security locks (I remember the speech on that asian guy in the TOOOL bumping video). What I mean is, that if the balls stay in their chamber, a lockpicker, locksmith or other service personnel could "undo" this locking with some special combpick that reaches all the respective balls and pushed them back in so the plug can be rotated back. If they don't stay in their chamber or cannot be adequately manipulated through the keyway the lock is done, gone and has to be drilled and replaced.
What makes me wonder though, if it was such a sophisticated mechanism, I think they would go to lengths bragging about it on their site.
I still don't really get it. MH, you think Retak on the KOKSA board might know something about it? He seems to be some kind of bipedal carbon-based lock encyclopedia...
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p1ckf1sh
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by mh » 5 Apr 2006 10:18
p1ckf1sh wrote:locking elements prevent rotation of the picked lock (Nachschließsicherheit) and makes picking itself harder (Abtastsicherheit)
I was never good with the German terms (learned all the theory from English sites  ), but in my mind "Nachschließsicherheit" is security against using a similar key - which means it needs low tolerances and many key variations. Key variations could of course be generated by profile checking balls. And then I think "Abtastsicherheit" is security against decoding the lock, means, measuring what key cuts are required etc. Kaba e.g. uses pin-pin-spring combinations that all have the same length to enhance that. While "Aufsperrsicherheit" would be the security against picking... (Not 100% sure about that, though, I might be confused...  ) In fact I find the German terms for this trade are really funny... Like "Falle" for a latch (also translates to 'trap') or "Zuhaltung" for 'locking element' - quite similar to "Zuhaelter" = 'pimp'... p1ckf1sh wrote: I still don't really get it. MH, you think Retak on the KOKSA board might know something about it? He seems to be some kind of bipedal carbon-based lock encyclopedia...
 From reading 10 of his posts, I got the same impression... Already tried to use his abilities to find a replacement for my beloved ABUS bicycle cable lock with the 3 dics combination mechanism (with real gates & fence etc... Nobody seems to know this, let alone know a source for one) - let's see...
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