Kwikset repinning question...

[vector40]

Yes, Hobbyists can fabricate picks and play with them and use them on their own locks at home.

If a hobbyist is stopped by police and found with lock picking tools, bolt cutters, pry bars, hammers, etc. ad. nausuem, they can be CRIMINALLY CHARGED with possession of burglary tools.

In my professional opinion (and I could be wrong) lock picking consists primarilly of LUCK.

Having said all this, in my "professional experience" the most desirable form of entry for burglary is NOT lock picking or fabrication of keys but the entry is USUALLY accomplished by the kicking in of the door, preferably a BACK door out of view of the public.

What are you talking about here?

[yegg57]

we are NOT getting rid of STACKS of bearings.

We are getting rid of 3 TINY balls that are the equivalent of 1 #2 master wafer.

This would reduce the shear line count in the lock from 2^6=64 to 2^5=32.

top top top top top
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
master master master master master
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
3 balls
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
Bottom Bottom Bottom Bottom Bottom


>>>OR<<<

top top top top top
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
master master master master master
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
3 balls
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
Bottom Bottom Bottom Bottom Bottom

>>>OR<<<

top top top top top
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
master master master master master
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
3 balls
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
Bottom Bottom Bottom Bottom Bottom






There is ALWAYS a master pin above the balls

dig out a micrometer and LOOK at what 46/1000's of an inch looks like. Perhaps you'll get it then...

[yegg57]

SHIT.

The software of this forum has eliminated the spaces I put into the demonstration.

let me try again...


top......... top......... top......... top......... top
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
master... master...master... master... master
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
..........................................3 balls
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
Bottom... Bottom... Bottom... Bottom... Bottom


>>>OR<<<

top......... top......... top......... top......... top
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
master... master...master... master... master
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
3 balls
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
Bottom... Bottom... Bottom... Bottom... Bottom

>>>OR<<<



top......... top......... top......... top......... top
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
master... master...master... master... master
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
...........................3 balls
----------------------------------------------------------------- shear line
Bottom... Bottom... Bottom... Bottom... Bottom


HTML anyway....

[vector40]

I get that. I don't understand what your other post was about.

[Raccoon]

I see what you're saying. And yes, I fully understand that 3 balls equates to a single #2 pin. My point is that anyone with half a mind would place those 3 balls (#2) into more than one stack at a time. But if they're not doing that, and putting balls into just 1 of the stacks, I can see how you're getting 5 keys.

Thanks for that info, it's very informative. If I see anyone using this system, I'll definitely call them on it.

Eric

[Mutzy]

Why do you need an additional master pin above the balls? That would allow another key to work.

My diagram (One chamber lock. For simplicity.)
(Shear lines displayed as underlines)

SPRING
TOP
BALLS
BOTTOM
^KEY^

Inserting the construction key, creates a shearline between the balls and the top pin.

Inserting the owner's key creates a shearline between the bottom pin and the balls.

Furthermore, when the owner's key is put in, the balls are not in the plug, so when the plug is turned, the balls fall into the hole in the dimple on the side (roughly 30 degrees)

After the owner's key is used, the lock's configuration is this:

SPRING
TOP
BOTTOM
^KEY^

The balls are not on the actual chambers anymore, and as such, the construction key cannot lift the top pin to the shear line.

For this to work, the construction key's cut has to be 2 deeper. (And if it was higher, he could just easily file it down to the right height.)

[yegg57]

Putting another master pin ABOVE the balls would permit a builder's master key to work both during construction and after the construction key is locked out would be my GUESS.

I don't know for sure that they ALWAYS put a master pin in the same stack as the balls, but I frequently eliminate 5 master pins from locks that also have the protecto-key balls in them.

All that I do know FOR SURE is that any home buyer who doesn't either (a) get their existing (usually crappy) locks re-keyed >>OR<< (b) upgrade their locks to at least grade 2 (preferably with some anti-pick pins), grade 1, or high security cylinders is VERY FOOLISH.

I went out on a job a few weeks back to re-key a house that was broken into after a garage remote was stolen from the car at a school. During my re-keying of the house I discovered that my set of 5 keys worked in several of the locks and that house was built in 198? (nineteen eighty-something) or about 20 years ago....

Y'all have a GREAT DAY!
Charley

[Shrub]

Two things jump to my mind,

1) Lockpicking is skill and not luck, sure you can open a lock by luck but to repetativley open that or anyother lock takes skill,

2) Maybe you had a lockie previous to you i your area or theres an issue with the person who is making the construction cylinders as a master pin above the balls and thus left in after the construction system balls have been moved out of the way is not only incorrect but crinimal, you should not master key any lock that the owner has not asked for, fitting locks on peoples houses that will ultimatley leave that premises masterkeyed without the owners consent or knowledge is wrong and not the normal way of doing things,

It could be that a mis-guided constucter in your area is doing it for whatever reason etc but hes wrong, its not the correct way to do it either ethically or legally.

I think its somthing you need to look into, maybe even do a door to door and ask the owner if you can try your keys and if they work do they want a new lock fitting, its really in your ethical interests to tell the home owners what you know.
It could get you a lot of work in.

[yegg57]

well....

1. re: Skill - not luck - Possibly. Also possibly your PERCEPTION. I've been doing this for a living since about 1989. One night I got a service call relatively distant from my house... I decided to take my car. The gentleman had Schlage "A" series grade 2 doorknob locks on some 6-10 exterior doors as well as the deadbolts. I spent nearly an hour trying many doors all the while very annoyed with myself because I didn't bring a can of WD-40 because my FIRST STEP is always lube up the locks before picking. Finally I went and did a search of my car and found some CUTTERS INSECT REPELLANT and knowing that those things are typically petroleum based I sprayed some of that into the locks on ONE of the doors and was in within about 5 minutes. LUCK definately prevailed!

2. Perhaps you are missing many of the points that I was raising. First, until a home is sold, the BUILDER IS the OWNER and as such can have anything keyed any way they want. Secondly there is typically no "lockie" involved, as the BUILDER/OWNER would order the locks construction keyed from the distributor or lock manufacturer. Third John and Suzie Homebuyer typically have NO CLUE that the house is master keyed when they buy it and the BUILDER frequently does not tell them that they should have their house rekeyed after purchase - this SHOULD be a common-sense thing for every person buying a house, but alas seems that common sense is about as common as a horse and buggy these days.

3. I did go out in some of the new costruction neighborhoods in well marked company trucks with flyers on an "educational" mission with the intention of getting some jobs from the adventure. What I found was that the people in the houses were looking at me like either I was some >>>BLEEPING<<< whacko or like I was a criminal looking to set them up.

I >>REALLY<< didn't like that feeling so I discontinued any kind of "door to door" operations. I do, however, plan on producing an info-mercial and some short advertising spots that I can run on the local TV stations and perhaps I can get their news departments involved in running some stories as well.

You can see me on TV at the following link.
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/consume ... 06-CR.html
This was from 5/4/6

[Shrub]

I think the numbers on this site are against you when you say lockpicking is a luck thing, we will have to agree to disagree there i think.

You charge and EXTRA $20 to drill a lock !!!!!!! ive heard it all now, unless that $20 is for the new lock i fail to see what the extra money is for?

If a contractor or builder is selling a brand new house masterkeyed and not telling the new owners then the apropreate autorities need telling as it surely must be illegal, hes setting up a property for burglry at a later date,

Masterkeying reduces security of a lock greatly and hes supposedly sellign a secure house.

[Shrub]

Also would it be a good idea to go on tv and tell everyone (even those that dont live in such houses) that their locks are master keyed and can be opened with only one of 5 keys?

That would/could cause you trouble by way of your shop being broken into by people looking for said keys OR someone living in such a hose could with some internet research reverse engineer the lock on their house and make a master key, they could then concievably open up one in every five houses in the area?

[yegg57]

Mr. Shrub, How long have you been making your living as a professional locksmith?

[Wolfman]

Also would it be a good idea to go on tv and tell everyone (even those that dont live in such houses) that their locks are master keyed and can be opened with only one of 5 keys?

That would/could cause you trouble by way of your shop being broken into by people looking for said keys OR someone living in such a hose could with some internet research reverse engineer the lock on their house and make a master key, they could then concievably open up one in every five houses in the area?

Mr. Shrub, How long have you been making your living as a professional locksmith?

Does that have ANYTHING to do with this? You must understand that we are a forum and we discuss our views and opinions. He was just saying... That was not an attack on your idea. Other peoples ideas help you build yorus.

If this was some sort of threat or chalenge, I stand by shrub. *Weilds foam "fun noodle" minicingly *

[yegg57]

Neither a threat or a challenge, just a question.

I was then going to go on and say that drilling the lock usually requires another walk to the vehicle to get the drill / bits, etc. Sometimes during drilling a bit will break and somehow the income has to be there to pay for drill bits and the extra time running back and forth to the truck. As I said on the video clip - it is maybe 1% of the time that I have to drill or otherwise destroy a lock to open it. Typically customers will be fairly understanding when "complications set in".

From a theoretical standpoint, in a perfect world, it would be great to pick every non-high-security cylinder "quick fast in a hurry" but in the real world with age, wear, dirt, grit, lack of maintenance, etc. ad. nauseum, picking doesn't always work, so YES, there is added labor charge for drilling and labor to replace a cylinder.

Shrub said: "You charge and EXTRA $20 to drill a lock !!!!!!! Laughing ive heard it all now, unless that $20 is for the new lock i fail to see what the extra money is for? "

I was mostly curious if he was actually a locksmith or a hobbiest....

Y'all have a GREAT DAY!
Charley

[Shrub]

I am a lockie and in the last 3 years drilled 1 door lock, it was a mortice lever lock that had been filled with epoxy and i didnt drill the door as the hole for the key hole was so big,

I have yet to drill a cylinder of any type,

It just suprise's me that tool wear and tear is charged to the customer and the walk from the door to the van (where is it? the other side of town?) is also a charge, $20 is only around £10 but i would never even think of doing such a thing thats all,

I make a charge for going to the job, if i break a tool getting them in thats my fault and the customer doesnt pay, if i am asked to replace a lock they get charged for the lock at a cheaper rate than the local shops charge and i dont charge for extra time, i quote an hours labour/call out and the lock price before i even go to them,

That means that the callout and labour are the same cost, i usually get all the job done within the hour (in a lock change) so as my callout covers the first hours labour as well they only pay for that, ill be honest and say it would need to get over 3 hours and multiple locks for me to start charging for extra time as i like to be fair,

On lock opening only, if i have to walk to the van 50 times and break 50 lockpicks getting them in i see it as an interesting difficult job and the enjoyment that gives me is enough without charging the customer for a set of picks each time and the shoe leather,

It just supprised me thats all, maybe its the norm where you are but ive never heard of such a thing before EVER, i trust you when you say that you only drill 1% of locks but theres nothing to say that you dont actually turn up to a job and say im so sorry but this lock HAS to be drilled and thats another $20 but as i say i can only take you as face value on here and am happy to give you the benefit of the doubt thats not the case.