Electro picking an upside down cylinder.

[insomniac]

Hi everyone,

I once read in a book on lockpicking that using an electric pick gun on a pin tumbular lock that has been fitted with the pins at the bottom of the lock instead of the top wasn't effective due to the laws of physics. When the needle of the pick gun hits the bottom pins, on a lock thats fitted with the pins at the top of the lock, they in turn hit the pins above which carry on travelling upwards whilst the bottom pins drop back down due to gravity, thus a space is created between both sets of pins which will enable the plug to turn.
Apparently, according to the book, when the lock is fiitted upside down then gravity will make the key pins fall down in the same direction as the spring pins and no space will be left between the two sets of pins.
Now, this also must apply to raking and scrubbing a lock which rely on the same laws.
I have successfully on more than one occasion, albeit on very easy cylinders, managed to open locks which were upside down, with the pins at the bottom of the cylinder instead of the top, using raking and scrubbing techniques using a snake or diamond pick.
I don't own an electronic pick but i'm rather interested to hear from people who do who have found they were able to pick cylinders that were fitted upside down using electronic pick guns. I'd especially be interested to hear what the bona fide locksmiths on here have found; is it possible, is there any difference from when the pins are fitted at the top of the lock, do some electro picks offer difference success rates at this than others e.g. HPC, Wendt Electronic Pick?
I look forward to reading your replies .
Insomniac.

[wgl]

Now, this also must apply to raking and scrubbing a lock which rely on the same laws.

Raking in fact doesn't rely on that law, it's rather like a fast way of randomly "single"-lifting the pins until they set one by one.
(...or maybe two at a time. But i think you'll get the point )

About e-picking locks mounted upside down: Can't tell you about that, as i do not own electric lockpick either, but i'm sure you will find some posts on that reading your way through the board

wiggle

[bembel]

I've got a Lockaid pickgun and a Southord e-pick. Also some picking experience, of course.
Gravity is no major problem.

Greeting from upside-down country

[evanman]

Hey, first let me just say that this is my first post on lockpicking 101 but that I've been lurking for a while. I'm a physicist so I feel like this is one question that I am well qualified to answer. I've never even used a pick gun, so this is purely theoretical though.

Lets review quickly how a pick gun works...

The pick gun causes the needle to accelerate quickly and then transfer some of its momentum to the top pins (while hopefully disturbing the bottom pins as little as possible). Much like in Newton's cradle. This creates a momentary gap between the top and bottom pins which will allow the lock to turn if the sheer line is in between each gap.

Now when the lock is upside down there is a constant force acting upward (towards the springs, but also the ground) on all of the pins (gravity). This means that if you create a gap between the top pins the bottom pins (which are actually on top now because the lock is upside down) then the bottom pins will immediately start accelerating towards the top pins.

There isn't an issue of whether the top pins will move far enough when the lock is upside down (they will actually go farther than when they are right side up because of gravity acting in the opposite direction). It is instead whether the bottom pins will be pulled past the sheer line by gravity before you can turn the lock. When the lock is right side up the issue is whether the top pins will be pulled below the sheer line by the springs and gravity before you can turn the lock. Whether you have a larger window to turn the lock when it is right side up or upside down is totally dependent upon things such as the spring constants of the springs, the density and dimensions of the pins, and the coefficient of friction for the sliding pins. I could design a lock that would actually be easier to open with a pick gun when it was upside down, although my guess would be that most locks would be harder upside down, though not at all impossible. The reason I say this is because I doubt that the bottom pins don't gain some momentum from the needle. If they gain a little bit this won't be a problem when the lock is right side up (because gravity will accelerate them away from the sheer line), but when the lock is upside down then that little bit of momentum might carry them across the sheer line very quickly.

Alright that is a little jumbled but I think that the point is clear. If I explained something strangely then just ask for clarification.

Evan

[toomush2drink]

Yes pickguns work on upside down locks, as with any other locks some open in seconds but others dont and take ages. It doesnt matter which way up they are the guns still work.