Five pin combination guide

[Wrenchman]

Knowing that the pins has to be lifted to the sheer line leaves
120 different ways to open a 5 pin lock


12345 12354 12435 12453 12534 12543
13245 13254 13425 13452 13524 13542
14235 14253 14325 14352 14523 14532
15234 15243 15324 15342 15423 15432

21345 21354 21435 21453 21534 21543
23145 23154 23415 23451 23514 23541
24135 24153 24315 24351 24513 24531
25134 25143 25314 25341 25413 25431

31245 31254 31425 31452 31524 31542
32145 32154 32415 32451 32514 32541
34125 34152 34215 34251 34512 34521
35124 35142 35214 35241 35412 35421

41235 41253 41325 41352 41523 41532
42135 42153 42315 42351 42513 42531
43125 43152 43215 43251 43512 43521
45123 45132 45213 45231 45312 45321

51234 51243 51324 51342 51423 51432
52134 52143 52314 52341 52413 52431
53124 53142 53214 53241 53412 52421
54123 54132 54213 54231 54312 54321


Try it

[Shrub]

I will link to this thread in the future but not for the reson you have given im sorry, but to show how a normal 5 pin lock can bind, we know that there are 120 differant combos that a lock can bind so it will show noobs that its not a simple 12345.

I think working through all 120 to try and pick a lock wont work as there is the skill attribute as well but yes 120 ways there is.

[Wrenchman]

Shrub wrote:

To show the noobs how a normal 5 pin lock can bind

That is exactly the reason I posted it, I am glad you like it!

[frollard]

Not to mention the times you have to overset a pin or two, to cause a picky pin to bind, then loosen the tension, let them drop, and repick them...

then you have cause for a bajillion perumutations.

[Kevo]

yes, there are 120 Possible orders to pick a lock. Thats interesting. In my algebra class we are talking about this same subject. You can find the possibilities a little faster than writting them all down and counting them though. you have a total of 5 pins. lets say you pick one. there are now four left. once you pick the next one there are three pins left. so the pattern goes
54321. you take all those and multiply them. 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 and you get 120.
so for a six pin lock. 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 and you get 720 possible ways.
there is an easier way of writting that though it is 5! or 6!.
that symbol means factorial. five factorial is 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1.

I think this is the only thing in school that i have not questioned, ''where am I ever going to use this?''

-Well that was just my little math lesson for the day. I hoped you enjoyed it.
You probably already knew it though.

[Wrenchman]

frollard wrote:

Not to mention the times you have to overset a pin or two, to cause a picky pin to bind, then loosen the tension, let them drop, and repick them...

Let´s just keep it simple, for the newbies sake

Kevo wrote:

You can find the possibilities a little faster than writting them all down and counting them though. You take all those and multiply them. 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 and you get 120. You probably already knew it though.

I had no idea, I am actually quite slow on math, but thanks now I know

[Shrub]

Yes its easy to work out but the purpose of the post was to show the combinations so well done we all get a cigar (well not me as i didnt do anything lol)

[vector40]

One wonders if there's any possibility of a "pin tumbler autodialer" that ran through every conceivable combination for a given spacing and depth set (they'd be stored, just like in a computer key machine), applying a little tension every time and stopping when the plug turned.

[p1ckf1sh]

I will link to this thread in the future but not for the reson you have given im sorry, but to show how a normal 5 pin lock can bind, we know that there are 120 differant combos that a lock can bind so it will show noobs that its not a simple 12345.

Power question:

On a lock with the determined binding order to be 34512 with CW tension, will the binding order cleanly invert to 21543 when doing CCW tension? Will it stay the same? Will it just jiggle up and be some completely random other binding order like 42135?

With my limited set of locks I could not make up any sound conclusion on this question, and rolling it around in my head seems to yield the same result. I am not too good at imagining this kind of stuff...

On a side note, regarding the 120 combinations, this is for a new and recently unpacked lock right from the factory. Even after some weeks of use I'd tend to believe that the binding order will change in favor of making any of the rear pins bind first (we all know this, key insertion causing maximum wear on first pin, little less on second, etc. yadda yadda). I have not yet seen a single lock that has pin 1 or 2 (counting from the front) binding first. On one of my lock it is the middle pin (3) and on most of the other ones it is 4, 5 as a first is rare.

That's just me, you may make totally different observations...

[pinsetter]

I will link to this thread in the future but not for the reson you have given im sorry, but to show how a normal 5 pin lock can bind, we know that there are 120 differant combos that a lock can bind so it will show noobs that its not a simple 12345.

Power question:

On a lock with the determined binding order to be 34512 with CW tension, will the binding order cleanly invert to 21543 when doing CCW tension? Will it stay the same? Will it just jiggle up and be some completely random other binding order like 42135?

Taking into consideration that the REASON for the binding order is determined by the holes for the pin chambers NOT being drilled in a perfectly straight line, it stands to reason that the binding order would REVERSE. So your binding order would be 32154 for CCW rotation if it was 34512 in CW direction. At least that's how the theory works out in my mind.

[Octillion]

I will link to this thread in the future but not for the reson you have given im sorry, but to show how a normal 5 pin lock can bind, we know that there are 120 differant combos that a lock can bind so it will show noobs that its not a simple 12345.

Power question:

On a lock with the determined binding order to be 34512 with CW tension, will the binding order cleanly invert to 21543 when doing CCW tension? Will it stay the same? Will it just jiggle up and be some completely random other binding order like 42135?

With my limited set of locks I could not make up any sound conclusion on this question, and rolling it around in my head seems to yield the same result. I am not too good at imagining this kind of stuff...

On a side note, regarding the 120 combinations, this is for a new and recently unpacked lock right from the factory. Even after some weeks of use I'd tend to believe that the binding order will change in favor of making any of the rear pins bind first (we all know this, key insertion causing maximum wear on first pin, little less on second, etc. yadda yadda). I have not yet seen a single lock that has pin 1 or 2 (counting from the front) binding first. On one of my lock it is the middle pin (3) and on most of the other ones it is 4, 5 as a first is rare.

That's just me, you may make totally different observations...

In general the order of pin binding may reverse depending on the direction torque is applied, but not always perfectly. This may have something to do with slight differences in the size or shape of the holes.

Also, I do have some used locks in which the first or second pin bind first.

[Shrub]

Yes thats a good question and one thats already been answered but yes in 'most' cases the binding order should change.

The pins wearing will not affect the binding order unless they are being worn on the side.

A lock with 1st or 2nd pins binding first is of course very likely as any order can be achieved.

[Wrenchman]

In a specific lock with five pins, the combination can only be one, for example 5,4,3,2,1, but because you don´t know, you´ll have to go through all onehundredandtwenty!
Now look what happens when you find the first binding pin, for example five, you reduce the combinations to twentyfour:

51234 51243 51324 51342 51423 51432
52134 52143 52314 52341 52413 52431
53124 53142 53214 53241 53412 52421
54123 54132 54213 54231 54312 54321

and when you find the second binding pin, for example two, you reduce the combinations to six:

52134 52143 52314 52341 52413 52431

and when you find the third binding pin, for example four, you reduce the combinations to two:

52413 52431

and when you find the fourth binding pin, for example three, you reduce the combinations to one:

52431

Congratulations you should now be able to turn the plug!

Ps. I broke my homemade pick yesterday, I´ll post a picture later, I need some advice, the pick is made of brass, a pretty cool material, it looks like Gold when you polish it, anybody already talking about this where I can join in?

[p1ckf1sh]

Taking into consideration that the REASON for the binding order is determined by the holes for the pin chambers NOT being drilled in a perfectly straight line, it stands to reason that the binding order would REVERSE. So your binding order would be 32154 for CCW rotation if it was 34512 in CW direction. At least that's how the theory works out in my mind.

That is what came to my mind as well. But I think there is something wrong with the reason you are giving... the way I understand the binding defect (and keep in mind I am relatively new) it can only exist in relation of two holes. I mean, you could have the holes in the shell in a wave pattern or whatever other random layout and imagining that the holes in the plug are perfectly matched you would not get a binding defect, but simultanous binding of all pins. The reason for the binding defect (as I understand it) is the (mis-)ALIGNMENT of the plug and shell holes in relation to each other, not the placement (straight line etc.). Please let me know if I am wrong here.

[p1ckf1sh]

In general the order of pin binding may reverse depending on the direction torque is applied, but not always perfectly. This may have something to do with slight differences in the size or shape of the holes.

...and imperfections in the shape/diameter of the pins, right?

That's just me, you may make totally different observations...

Also, I do have some used locks in which the first or second pin bind first.

So I was right in my assumption, that I might be wrong. Weird though, of all the locks I had my hands on until now, I never had a 1st or 2nd binding pin. I need more locks.

Actually, one more question regarding locks. In my previous posting I stated that I think the real reason for the binding defect to be the misalignment of the drilled holes in relation to each other. It might be wrong, but I think not. So here goes, why don't lock manufacturers just drill the plug and shell holes at the same time, i.e. with the plug inserted into the shell and locked in place. I think the drilling imperfections could actually be lowered by that. Is it too expensive to join plug and shell that early in the production process?