Bumping...and Tubular Locks...

[LostGunner]

Riddle me this: Is it possible to use a bumpkey against a Tubular lock? I can see no reason why not, and having bought some tubular locks and some blank tubular keys I'd like to see it happen. My strategy was thusly:

My initial thought was to create the Tubular Bump Key (TBK) like a regular bumpkey by cutting the deepest cuts into a blank. As I attempted to do this with my "locksmith" files I realized that that wasn't going to work.

My next thought was: Why do I need to cut individual slots? I considered the mechanism of the tubular lock and thought that if I simply file off a ridge a half millimeter or so around the whole tip of the key (such that the key is the same length but the end that contacts the pins is about half the thickness of the rest of the tube) that when I insert it the ridge will slide down and contact the pins simultaneously.

As I was doing this I further examined the lock and decided that the outer "guide" on the key (that is, the tab that indicated where the key should be inserted; there is are two slots, one on the outer ring and one on the inner ring of the lock, for which this "guide" fits in) contributed nothing to the function of the lock other than to show you where the key goes. (I could be wrong about this point, but it did not appear so). So midway through filing the ridge on the end of the key I stopped and filed the "guide tab" off.

It seemed then that if I hit the key while turning it that it would contact the bottom pins, knocking them into the top pins which should clear the shear line and the lock would turn. After banging the key into the lock (secured by a clamp to my workbench) with varying levels of force I succeeded only in making some dents in the key where the top pins contacted them and semi-breaking the the key (whereas pre-screwing around with it, the key had a tubular portion that fit into the lock and a flat portion that you gripped with your fingers to twist it, the tubular portion now rotates, about 20 degrees, on the flat portion).

A few details and summary:
- I'm using a "Flex" Ace Tubular lock to which I have the key and bought 10 blanks from lockpicks.com.

- It is possible that I need to file more off so that there is actually a ridge that fits between the top pins and the center piece, however if that is the case I do not understand why.

- I believe the important component of the key is the nub inside the tubular key which actually provides the torque for turning the lock, therefore the key should be able to stick out a little (which is why there doesn't need to be a proper ridge) and still provide torque after the hammer transfers the kinetic energy to the key and the key to the pins.

- My digital camera is busted so I have no pictures for ya'll, sorry about that.

Thoughts?

[Jason13]

If you where to bump the key wouldnt the pins set in the others pins holes?

[LostGunner]

I apologize for not editing my own post, I seem to not have that ability on this part of the forum. Anyway upon further review (I think I mistyped when I searched the first time) there seem to be others that have a similar idea, though I didn't see anyone that tried what I did and they are much older threads, but here are the links to other posts about unconventional tubular picking:

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=7736&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=tubular+bumping&start=0

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=6674&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=tubular+bumping

They answer some questions that I pose, one of which being that it does appear that the nub on the outside of the key serves no real purpose for the lock mechanism. People suggested cutting a traditional 999 key but I still don't see how that would help. All you need is something that will hit the top pin and transfer some kinetic energy to the bottom pin...

[Jason13]

No one of th emods removed the EDIT button dont be sorry

[LostGunner]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say that if you bump it that the pins will set in the other pins holes. I'm guessing that you mean that if you hit it you'll knock the top pins into the bottom pins, turn the lock and the top pins will move and the bottom pins will not, but if I understand the tubular lock correctly that shouldn't matter. The size of the bottom pins is mostly irrelevant, as long as you have the top pin pushing the bottom pin down to the shear line (which is what the key does) the size of the top pin and the depth of the key cut are the only things that matter.

If you look here there is a very good explanation of how tubular locks work:

viewtopic.php?t=11134

[NKT]

You have a problem when you bump one of the "anti-klop" cylinders, because when you turn the plug, so more pins fall into the lock and block it. When you bump a regular lock, if you turn the plug all the way around, it will re-lock.

With a tubular lock, you will find the same thing happens. However because of the way a tubular lock is arranged, you will find that the lock has only turned 1/7th or 1/8th of the way around before this happens, and the lock re-locks.

Having picked tubular locks by hand, when this happens one of the pins tends to get very stuck in the lock, at the point where the driver normaly sits.

Hence, even if you could bump it, you wouldn't want to!

[Lukekjackson]

Just a thought, what are the spring strengths like on tubular locks compared to pin tumblers, I don’t have much experience of them but it seems that they would be stronger. Would you be able to get the required separation with a small amount ov initial movement

Also in the post you linked, there is a reference to Vairing spring pressures in the Ace II surely this would make bumping very difficult as you wouldn’t get regular pin separation.

[chrisjc33]

But as NKT said you would have to bump the lock 7/8 times for the key to turn all the way round

[jimb]

But as NKT said you would have to bump the lock 7/8 times for the key to turn all the way round

Not all of them I think some will open with the first turn. I have one on a bank bag that will open by single pin picking it twice.

I haven't read the other threads but I think it might be impossible to bump a tubular lock with a key cut to the deepest depths. If you insert this into the lock then you would be bumping against a solid base. The pins wont bounce. I think that you would have better luck bumping with a key blank, no cuts after removing the nub.

[LockNewbie21]

Why not just single pin pick, i mean for a locksmth thre basically a thing of the past any average joe can uses mommy's money to but th epick practive for anight or two with diffrent things on here and pop its open. Just single pin pick it theres a reason fullproof methods have been devised half the time if you just practice bumping is something you do when time is important, although i wouldnt see a need for time of picking to be important with tubulars anyway, there only on vending machines.. well not them anymore either. Just do it pin by pin its good idea but if it worked it would have been invented and mass produced already


Andy

[Gordon Airporte]

But as NKT said you would have to bump the lock 7/8 times for the key to turn all the way round

Or find a way to get it to turn just 1/14th or 1/16th when bumped, then set a regular tubular pick to the code.

[jordyh]

But as NKT said you would have to bump the lock 7/8 times for the key to turn all the way round

Or find a way to get it to turn just 1/14th or 1/16th when bumped, then set a regular tubular pick to the code.

This would make room for impressioning, i guess.

[illusion]

::cough:: polymorph::cough::

[raimundo]

If you stop turning before it goes and eighth of a turn, you could hammer a bic pen into the picked lock and have a plastic impressioned key.

[LostGunner]

I think there is no question that you can buy tubular lock picks and they work fine. My goal in bringing this question up was more a question of feasibility and principle than practical use. Plus tubular lock picks are (relatively) expensive compared to other lock opening tools.

I think that one of the benefits of bumping is that even on a tubular lock that you might have to pick repetitively, it should be relatively easy to bump it enough times to make it efficient enough time-wise to open it.

I would like to see this thread answer the following questions: are the springs on individual pins on tubular locks different? If so does that negate the ability to bump the lock? Are the springs on tubular locks stiff enough that bumping is not an effective option?

Is there a way/is it possible to bump tubular locks? If so what is the best way to create a bump key for a tubular lock?

My knowledge about tubular locks suggests that it is possible, however I need more imput and experimentation to verify it.