Proposed Pin Tumbler Bypass Technique

[ThE_MasteR]

Very nice idea, It might work on a Kwikset or other with simple wards, would be messy though.

What if you developed a small tube with holes, inside the tube was a slightly smaller tube with the same divots aligned with it. At the base of the tube a simple thumb screw. Insert the tube allowing all pins to fall in their little holes, tighten the thumb (sliding the inner tube forward and catching the pins in place). You now literally have the pins clamped in place (and you don't glue your fingers together ).

There is the obvious problem of pin spacing, etc. It would also be difficult to get a small enough tube, perhaps a rectangle, triangle, etc., but it would accomplish your goal and be reusable.

I wish I could draw a picture of what I mean, it makes sense in my head anyways. I like your idea though, very novel way of looking at the problem.

Here it is.
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... led0ck.jpg

[Exodus5000]

[/quote]Here it is.
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... led0ck.jpg[/quote]

I like it!

[eric343]

This will NOT work. There's no glue strong enough!

Super glue has a bonding strength of ~1000psi. A decent metal-bonding epoxy will get up to 2500-3000psi.

Now, you have about a .025x.025 bond area, asssuming that the pins have somewhat flat bottoms.

This makes for 0.0006 square inches!

Assuming you use the strongest epoxy you can find (which will take 24 hours to cure) and you devise some means of roughening the bottoms of the pins in situ (to achieve maximum bond strength), that makes for a whopping 1.8 pounds of downward force you can apply to each pin!

Now try pushing the pins while applying enough force to bind them all. A little more than 1.8 pounds, I'm guessing...

In reality, there's no way you're going to get the full 3000psi, either -- you likely can't roughen the pins or effectively clean the surfaces of the pins, and you can't leave the tool in the door for the epoxy's 24 hours' curing time. You'd have the lock picked long before!

[eric343]

What if you developed a small tube with holes, inside the tube was a slightly smaller tube with the same divots aligned with it. At the base of the tube a simple thumb screw. Insert the tube allowing all pins to fall in their little holes, tighten the thumb (sliding the inner tube forward and catching the pins in place). You now literally have the pins clamped in place (and you don't glue your fingers together ).

Now this might work!
You certainly have more surface area to work on when you're binding to the side of the pins.

The problem is that the pins are usually wider than the keyway, and the keyway itself is very narrow -- you'd be better off with a vertically-oriented arrangement. I'm thinking stacked plates (like a laminated padlock, but the plates vertical to grip the pins) that can be forced together (by means of a steel wire running through a fine hole in the center), and then pulled downward by a steel rod through the bottom. The plates would simplify fabrication (wire EDM is 2D and is one of the few ways to cut with the needed precision), too -- you could easily make tools for all different keyways.

[ThE_MasteR]

What if you developed a small tube with holes, inside the tube was a slightly smaller tube with the same divots aligned with it. At the base of the tube a simple thumb screw. Insert the tube allowing all pins to fall in their little holes, tighten the thumb (sliding the inner tube forward and catching the pins in place). You now literally have the pins clamped in place (and you don't glue your fingers together ).

Now this might work!
You certainly have more surface area to work on when you're binding to the side of the pins.

The problem is that the pins are usually wider than the keyway, and the keyway itself is very narrow -- you'd be better off with a vertically-oriented arrangement. I'm thinking stacked plates (like a laminated padlock, but the plates vertical to grip the pins) that can be forced together (by means of a steel wire running through a fine hole in the center), and then pulled downward by a steel rod through the bottom. The plates would simplify fabrication (wire EDM is 2D and is one of the few ways to cut with the needed precision), too -- you could easily make tools for all different keyways.

Maybe a drawing of that would help, I am having problems imaginating it.

[cracksman]

Hehe, nice pic master

That is what I was thinking of, I agree the tube idea isn't very feasible.

Instead of a tube, how about 3 sliding pieces of steel, (I stuck 3 Peterson slims together into a Schlage and Abus, they fit into the top of the keyway). Notch them all equally, then use the same principle to manaveur the center piece (sharpen the edge if you like). You might then be able to clamp the pins, would cut into them a bit more, but it might work.

Regardless, if it works or not, I still like the original idea

[cracksman]

*I think we may be overestimating the torque neede to hold all the pins up, it seems that the tighter the tolerances of the lock, at least theoreticaly, the easier Exodus's idea would work.....err, I think

[p1ckf1sh]

I know, I'm kinda skeptical about my idea too. Maybe someone will come up with a solid flaw. Who knows, I may even get motivated enough to test it tonight.

I think this could work on some locks, but it will stand or fall with the following factors:

a) glue bonding hard enough to take the strain (you are only binding them to a very tiny contact area (pin tip - rod)
b) mobility of rod in warded keyway
c) amount of tolerances and bitting.

Let me explain the last one - with some european locks I encountered, no matter how much tension you give there will still be a last pin moving freely. This is not with all locks, but with some of them. Once this happens to you, the theory is not completely opening the lock anymore. You might be able to get 4 out of 5 to set and have to manually pick the last one.

Also, make sure not to take too much glue and ensure it is hardened properly before lifting the rod all the way. You might just smear glue into the drill holes by that...

[raimundo]

when you put tension on a core, depending on the tolerance between the core and the cylinder, one or two pins will take the majority of the pressure, while others will bind a bit and one or two may remain loose. when you pick the binding pin, another pin will then bind. the step that is protrudeing in the pin collumn when tension is on, is not often sharp, more likely its beveled a little and we know that pins are usually beveled to slip off this step. I think your theory is not taking all this into account, and why couldn't you just use the straight lifter and try to drop all the pins to the shear without the glue and heavy pressure, sort of like overlifting? Just something to think about,

[pinsetter]

My $.02 on this one:

First, the lock would have to be absolutely clean and free of any form of lubrication for this to even possibly work.

Second, to apply enough glue to hold the pins, you would have to have a decent bead on top of the thin rod you're going to use, and some of this would assuredly get raked off in the lock where you didn't want it.

So, had you taken the time to thoroughly clean the lock, unless you have the hands of an expert surgeon and nerves of steel, you're going to get glue all over the inside of the lock, namely on the bottom of the shell and between the pins and the housing chambers. So what happens when some of that unwanted glue sticks even a couple of pins to the chamber walls? As we know, a lock needs to be unlocked to disassemble it, and with bottom pins glued to the chambers impeding the shear line disassembly becomes quite impossible unless you can remove the pins in another manner and break the glued ones loose with a punch or something.

So in short: Glue does not belong inside locks of ANY design. IMHO you are only asking for trouble by purposely placing any form of glue deep inside the lock body. I know I won't be caught putting any glue in any of my locks, and especially not a lock that belonged to someone else.

Any pin tumbler design that this might remotely work on, which I seriously doubt exists, would be easy enough to pick anyway as we're just talking about basic pin tumbler design with no security features.

Just my opinion!

[illusion]

If the bottom pins have been modified to security pins then this idea would struggle.

The idea is a nice one, but with things like comb and sputnik picks it doesn't really seem to bear much merit.

I had another idea just for a laugh: Get something able to drill accurately into each pin - drill a small hole in the middle of each pin that goes straight through. Insert wires with a sputnik like device and push the wires THROUGH the bottom pins. Lift every top pin above the sheer line and apply tension, the plug will turn untill it meets the wires, at which point retract them and let the plug turn. The idea is similar to the Michaud attack in some respects.

I guess it would allow the key to work perfectly since the hole is so small, and if you could drill the holes quickly would be fairly fast. Perhaps the issue of the brass shavings would need attending to, but the idea has merit.

Dunno - thought I'd throw some ideas into the pot.

[ThE_MasteR]

If the bottom pins have been modified to security pins then this idea would struggle.

The idea is a nice one, but with things like comb and sputnik picks it doesn't really seem to bear much merit.

I had another idea just for a laugh: Get something able to drill accurately into each pin - drill a small hole in the middle of each pin that goes straight through. Insert wires with a sputnik like device and push the wires THROUGH the bottom pins. Lift every top pin above the sheer line and apply tension, the plug will turn untill it meets the wires, at which point retract them and let the plug turn. The idea is similar to the Michaud attack in some respects.

I guess it would allow the key to work perfectly since the hole is so small, and if you could drill the holes quickly would be fairly fast. Perhaps the issue of the brass shavings would need attending to, but the idea has merit.

Dunno - thought I'd throw some ideas into the pot.

Kinda the same idea, but in a more complicated way.

[illusion]

My idea involves a perfect overlifting procedure once the holes have been drilled. Hmm... if you could actualy drill the holes with any rate of effectiveness my idea wiould be better since the bottom pins do not come into the equation, but in reality I don't know about it's level of feasibility - seems more of an 'ops' technique. Whatever you used to make the holes would need some serious design, and if mechanicaly drilling then would create a lot of noise - laser perhaps?

[ThE_MasteR]

laser perhaps?

Hmmmm.....yeah.

[illusion]

laser perhaps?

Hmmmm.....yeah.

hmmmm.... was that sarcasm?