Few general questions

by **Derek06** » 31 May 2006 0:06

Well, I am getting another set of picks because I seem to have lost or inadvertently thrown out my old set and I have decided to make my own set and get them from LockPickShop.com and have chosen a

S Rake
Single Ball
Long Hook with Metal Handle
Large Diamond with Metal Handle
Short Hook Pick with Metal Handle
Tension Wrench - Long Twist Flex
Tension Wrench - Short Twist Flex
Small Diamond

I belive my selection is good for a inbetween beginner and novice stage but I could be wrong. So could someone tell wich of these picks I shouldn't get because I will probably never use or shouldnt get a metal handle for because I will hardly ever be using it, or if I were to be better off with a set that they have already set up and so on. And was curious on what would happen if I were to bring these with me on a trip and the plane or train or other transportation service security personel were to find them would they get confiscated? or would I be okay.

P.S And is there a better site that i should get my set from that ships to Canada and hi all

by **Raccoon** » 31 May 2006 0:21

I successfully brought my lockpicks and 4 locks with me in my carry-on luggage. I have a pretty complete pick set, and the locks were fairly large and advanced, if not menacing blunt objects. The ONLY comments I received at TSA security were "oh, a locksmith" and they seemed rather impressed they got to hold actual lockpicks.

The TSA restricts tools that are over 7 inches or that have a sharp edge. The serrated edge of my rakes didn't seem to concern them, but admittedly I tucked those behind my hooks. I'm sure they saw them as they got a good look, but they didn't seem to mind.

I will also confess that I was dressed sharply and wielded a first class ticket. I looked like I was on a business trip, so that may have played a big role.

I advise if you do bring them, be sure to remove your locks and picks and other metal objects from your luggage and place them in the TSA bucket separate from your bag. If you leave them in your bag, it raises a level of suspicion.

by **Raccoon** » 31 May 2006 0:26

PS. Trains have no security to speak of. Two years ago I tested this fact.

As mentioned on this site, carrying lockpicks is not illegal in most places. Do check your local laws to confirm this, but most laws need to prove intent of burglary or intent to commit a felony before lockpicks become implements of burglary or instruments of crime.

by **hzatorsk** » 31 May 2006 11:15

Raccoon wrote:PS. Trains have no security to speak of. Two years ago I tested this fact.

As mentioned on this site, carrying lockpicks is not illegal in most places. Do check your local laws to confirm this, but most laws need to prove intent of burglary or intent to commit a felony before lockpicks become implements of burglary or instruments of crime.

Geesh... Please... once again... get your legal advice from an attorney. Laws do not "need to prove intent"!! Laws DEFINE what intent is. And in many cases, "possession" is the evidence of intent.

Consider my state, Virginia:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-94 wrote:Â§ 18.2-94. Possession of burglarious tools, etc.

If any person have in his possession any tools, implements or outfit, with intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny, upon conviction thereof he shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. The possession of such burglarious tools, implements or outfit by any person other than a licensed dealer, shall be prima facie evidence of an intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny.

(Code 1950, Â§ 18.1-87; 1960, c. 358; 1970, c. 587; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

by **UWSDWF** » 31 May 2006 13:13

If your building the set IE; purchasing individually I'd suggest buy direct from the manuf.

by **Raccoon** » 31 May 2006 15:01

hzatorsk wrote:Geesh... Please... once again... get your legal advice from an attorney. Laws do not "need to prove intent"!! Laws DEFINE what intent is. And in many cases, "possession" is the evidence of intent.

Consider my state, Virginia...

Your state is an exception. The majority I've seen posted on this site, and the ones I've looked up, do not define "intent". That means that intent must be proven through activities linked to the carrying of lockpicking tools. The laws to my state, New Mexico, specify that carrying lockpicks is a misdemeanor ONLY if the subject is in the process of commiting a FELONY. This is particularly strange, as tresspassing is not a felony, so one could not be charged additionally for carrying lockpicks.

by **hzatorsk** » 31 May 2006 16:26

Yeah, I'll agree with you... 'intent' seems not well defined in this particular section of code for NM. But, I disagree on the misdemeaner charge.

Section 30-16-5 of the NM code:

"Possession of burglary tools consists of having in the person's possession a device or instrumentality designed or commonly used for the commission of burglary and under circumstances evincing an intent to use the same in the commission of burglary.

Whoever commits possession of burglary tools is guilty of a fourth degree felony. "

I cannot imagine a rational situation where a police officer would be involved in an inquiry without probable cause (or a search WITH probable cause) and there NOT be a circumstance evincing intent.

If you are THIS close to a LEO, in a public place, and have locksmithing tools... I'll certainly want to hear your presentation of the facts surrounding your circumstance to the contrary of intent to a DA.

Me... I'd be in jail! ...and apparently those sentenced for possession of burglary tools (unknown if with other charges) get about 4.1 years according to NM's sentaecing guidelines for the tools themselves.

by **Raccoon** » 31 May 2006 16:48

Personally, I'd pull out my yellow pages ad and ask them to call 838-LOCK.

Where did you find that rendition of the law? I am certain I read misdemeanor and not fourth degree felony. Where does it state sentencing for 4th-DFs?

by **hzatorsk** » 31 May 2006 18:06

Start here and search for "burglary tools" under the New Mexico section of the website. (Sorry... the site is frame laden and doesn't allow direct links to searches.)

http://www.conwaygreene.com/newMexico.htm

These guys have the NM contract for publishing state publications

The 4.1 years came from this link... although I had another document specific to the sentencing guidelines that supported it, I can't seem to put my google to it now.

http://www.nmsc.state.nm.us/download/An ... 140206.pdf

Look at "other property crimes" page 3 and the related footnote. Also note that burglary is classified as a seperate offense in the the charts than possession of burglary tools... likely most would be charged with both crimes if tools were involved in a burglary and it was known at the time of the trial/sentencing.

Interesting... eh?

FWIW: My original point... perhaps unclear... is that 'intent' is what a jury thinks and not what was going through your head at the time.

Cheers

by **hzatorsk** » 31 May 2006 18:17

BTW: IANAL = "I am not a lawyer"

Sorry Derek06, We hijacked your thread.

I guess the answer is... you are at the mercy of whatever the security officer or LEO wants to do in the particular jurisdiction you happen to be in. Packed in baggage will certainly be better than carried on your person. Will you get arrested? Get off without charges? Get your picks back? ...Hard to say. Therefore, I won't.

Are your pick choices good ones?

Absolutely! Given a budget I think you have the basics covered for pin tumbler locks. You'll start an interesting thread by asking... "I got $20... what do I buy next?"

Cheers

z

by **Derek06** » 1 Jun 2006 1:14

Accutaly I dont mind this hi-jacking because it has cleared things up for me very nicely. But I would like to say that 20$ was not my budget and I can go higher and thats why I was asking because I was sure I had missed something or someone would have recomended more tools but if not thats fine by me.

Anyway, I saw that LockPickShop.com has circular tention tools and was wondering on how good are they? and are they worth the money?

Thanks for the help all.

by **hzatorsk** » 1 Jun 2006 8:39

Cool beans!

Got more cash! ...then you'll be able to take more than one suggestion.

by **digital_blue** » 1 Jun 2006 10:09

Derek06 wrote:Anyway, I saw that LockPickShop.com has circular tention tools and was wondering on how good are they? and are they worth the money?

I've heard very mixed reviews on these. Seems to me that it might be alright on a mounted lock, but you likely wouldn't want to try and use one with practice locks in your hands.

db

by **p1ckf1sh** » 2 Jun 2006 5:29

hzatorsk wrote:Laws DEFINE what intent is. And in many cases, "possession" is the evidence of intent.

[...]

[...]shall be prima facie evidence [...]

Have you looked up how the term prima facie is defined and handled in the US? Here in Germany, it means "first glance evidence" (Augenscheinsbeweis). If this is defined likewise in the US it means that as soon as you present some of your training locks it can't be used as evidence of intent for burglary anymore. It just means that the LEO has to assume criminal intent first off when encountering something like this, but when he is presented with a valid, legitimate usage they lose their value as evidence.

IANAL, especially not one firm in US law, but I think you should research how this term is used and defined in your area. And no, I am not trying to be arrogant, snobby or come off like Dr. Allknow, I am just nitpicking, and this is important regarding legalese, because every word is well thought-of and there for a reason...

by **hzatorsk** » 2 Jun 2006 16:06

Yes... Generally true. But remember that prima facie evidence doesn't necessarily have to 'go away' with a suspect's explanation.

It is all subject to interpretation and if somebody want to make a point to discourage this activity in their area... guess who is going to get hassled.

Few general questions

Few general questions

Who is online