Bumping...and Tubular Locks...

[Gordon Airporte]

Well, rather than the '9' cut you want on a regular bump-key, you would do it with an '8' cut I think. If you put a short, stiff spring on the tip of the bumper it could be used to hold the device a small distance above the pins while still registering within the lock, then you would strike it and the 8 cuts would briefly contact the pins and bump them. Does that make sense?

[LostGunner]

I want it to make sense but... it doesn't. Seems to me that if you have torque on the lock and you hit the top pins, it shouldn't matter what they're hit with. So long as kinetic energy is delivered to the top pins they should transfer it to the bottom pins and the spring shoud compress. I don't think that you need to have cuts in the key at all. You just need something torqueing (sp?) the center and something applying kinetic energy to the pins.

[LockNewbie21]

Dude, there has to be cuts or all the pins would be pushed to maximun depths, now in theory its pluasable, that this could work, just buy a bulk set of 25 to 50 keys off ebay, the that little tubular cutter they have a go to work. Or you could ask a lockie to cut oyu one if he deals in tubular locks for a key cut to the lowest cuts which he wouldn't do..well a smart one. I'm not trying to be an arse here, as i believe ideas liek this one could one day change the pattern of picking the lock, but if you looking for a cheep way to prove it tragically there is'nt one... you might be able to get set of depth keys that are tubular on ebay or some where, worth a shot, i have never seen them.


Andy

[LostGunner]

I respectfully disagree. Consider: whether or not you have a tubular key that has been cut to 999 depths or a tubular key that has had it's end shaved off completely, or even a tubular key with no modifications beyond removing the top knub, it should work the same way. There is an important difference between a normal tumbler lock and a tubular lock bump key which is that on a regular pin tumbler lock if the cuts are too high they will raise the lower pin too high, however this is not the case in tubular locks. So long as the bump key is not pressing down on the pins initially, but is still able to provide torque, when you hit it the kinetic energy should transfer and the lock should open, because none of the lower pins cross the shear line.

[LockNewbie21]

Like i said good luck, i always like to see a like minded person like me in here pushing the envelope even with an a$$ like me pushing oyu the other way , With out these people.. we probobly wouldnt even have locks, but if you do get it, i say patent it immedietly so noone can steal it, then put all the tubular pick makers out of buisness gotta be a good feeling you know? Any way good luck, keep me updated, i will do som expierementing myself, but like all my other threads that are awaiting pics, my sisters camera is to complicated, i will get it one of these days. Later bud


Andy

[Gordon Airporte]

So long as kinetic energy is delivered to the top pins they should transfer it to the bottom pins and the spring shoud compress. I don't think that you need to have cuts in the key at all. You just need something torqueing (sp?) the center and something applying kinetic energy to the pins.

Okay, sorry, I have very limited experience with tubular locks. The idea is to apply the energy in a short burst of contact, so the point of having cuts at the deepest level-1 is that they will strike the top pins, then the key will bottom out almost immediately (one cut-length later) but the pins will continue on their way. You might not need the spring on the end that I was talking about, you could start with the bump key resting lightly on the pins.
With a normal pin tumbler key you make the cuts to the deepest depth because the ramps that actually contact the pins stick up. With a tubular key you have to leave the cuts shallow because they're acting as the ramps.

[TOWCH]

Using an uncut tubular key would not work, you would overlift all of the bottom pins when you hit it. You would want the cuts to be deeper than 8's and shallower than 9's. The pins should keep the key from fully inserting, and the face of the key would act as the shoulder.

[unipope]

you would not overlift it. Insert the blank key and then hit it from the top. This way you are not pushing the key into the lock any more, yet you still transfer the kinetic force.

[LockNewbie21]

I'm still confused, TOWCH is right there has to be cuts, i mean if you are talking of just holding the blank right on top of the pins not pushing down right? then striking it quicklyjust so it hits the tops of the pins and the does the bump key thing? I mean thats the only logical thing i culd think of useing a blank, but even then being able to hold it and not push it intot he lock when a significant enough bump is applied would be a challenge not including variable spring tension, i only see TOWCH's explaination valid if this theory actually indeed works. I am in no way downing you however, could you make a video explaing you method? i am sure then this mix up would be sorted, or even pictures with a good explaination, i am interested though, ihope it doesn't work, only becuase then theres 70 bucks down the drain for the tubular pick i don' use anyway



Andy

[TOWCH]

you would not overlift it. Insert the blank key and then hit it from the top. This way you are not pushing the key into the lock any more, yet you still transfer the kinetic force.

Strike the key down rather than in? It seems to me like the energy would only be transfered to the pins on the bottom half of the lock and the key would pull away from those on top. At an angle maybe but I'm skeptical of both.

[LostGunner]

I may not have explained myself very well...

There is an important difference between a tubular bump key and a pin tumbler bump key. If you have insert a blank pin tumbler it will push all the pins up and the lock won't turn no matter how hard you hit it because it has already moved the pins. With a tubular blank you can insert it [partially] but not push down on the pins, which means that theoretically you could then hit it and have the energy transferred to the top pins which would transfer it to the bottom pins which would move.

That said, I think there may be an advantage in making a "999" bump key for tubular locks, because that way (as LockNewbie21) pointed out, you could avoid overlifting the pins.

I'm away from my tools right now, but when I return I'll try to make it happen and report back my findings hopefully with pictures and possible video.

[LostGunner]

Still a fail.

Having already destroyed one key I started again with a new one. I took a file and made an "incision" at what appeared to be roughly the "9" position, which was about 2mm from the end of the key. I then expanded it around the tube and down to the end. (Though now I'm looking at it compared to the key that actually fits the lock and it appears I may have made the cut too deep...)

With some careful observation I noted that the correct key, when inserted but not pushed, will have the knob on the end just barely disappear into the lock. My bumpkey accomplishes that. However whenever I hit it, it appears to go to the deepest depth but then stays there.

After typing all this and thinking it through: I think the problem is that my cut was too deep and the ledge isn't engaging the pins. Dang. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

[workstation]

I think this should work well. Maybe it won't work as well as bumping a conventional pin-tumbler lock, because you want the driver pins to move in the same direction as the impact, so you won't get the detaining effect that (I'm pretty sure that) normal bumping has on the key pin. It would be more like using a pick gun, and might require good timing.

Once you can turn the plub a little bit, surely you would just remove the bump key, and use cardboard or something to impression a key, as Raimundo suggested. This would actually be better than normal bumping, as you will end up with an impressioned "key".

Whether this technique will better than the pure cardboard impressioning method, I don't know. Maybe it would be a good technique for locks where each pin has its own hole. Obviously these are immune to the ordinary bic pen, or whatever, and are sometimes used on doors in France, as well as vending machines etc.

[franko452000]

my tubular pinning kit has 1 bottom pin size, and spring size. i don't like that but these kits are hard too find. but really all the locks i re-pinned work well with the standard pins. but watch those deep cuts ! i keep old pins around for those. i mean a short bottom pin .,, the ones that look a little german hand-genande.lol ok am drunk.............

[Shrub]

You see a blank wouldnt work,

1) You need that stop to avoid oversetting the high pins, otherwise with a blank you are simply hitting until the key bottoms out, without cuts this is when the bottom of the key hits the bottom of the lock by which time your left with all the pins fully depressed, unless you find away to stop the key moving in too far you need to have cuts on it so the uncut part of the key hits the bottom of the lock without oversetting any of the pins,

2) You need the key to sit down so the nib is engaged so you can apply tension to the lock, otherwise your not tensioning on much at all if at all because a lot of blanks dont have the nib running all the way to the edge of the key,