Pinning beyond MACS

by **fjardeson** » 18 Jun 2006 22:50

Anyone run across information about pinning beyond MACS? I know that this can make your keys stick, but a bit of hand customization of the keys could fix that. And in some locks, (Master comes to mind) the key coding spacing is so small you could easily violate MACS.

Anyone who knows about the sneaky half-punch combinations on a Simplex pushbutton latch should understand the power of this. Not to mention it makes picking really hard

by **n2oah** » 18 Jun 2006 22:58

Pinning beyond MACS is really not a smart idea.

by **maxxed** » 19 Jun 2006 0:04

I have done a little pinning beyond MACS however I do have a cutter that has a steeper than the normal cut angle. The biggest problem is that the keys do not duplicate well if I take it to the extreeme.

by **Varjeal** » 19 Jun 2006 11:24

n20ah is correct. Unless it's a lock used for picking practice only, pinning locks violating MACS (especially for customers) is a very poor practice. If a person is concerned about too many similar types keys in an area, simply switching cylinder profiles will do the trick just as well.

by **raimundo** » 19 Jun 2006 16:43

Mad maxed can cause keys to become permanently stuck in keyways if not at first, later. this happens when withdrawing the key, the pin cannot easily ride the cam angle and if force is used, it causes a ding on the cam angle of the brass key, making a difficult obstacle to withdrawing the key, if you do run into this problem, use lube before trying any further force, as the force is with the ding not you.

by **maxxed** » 19 Jun 2006 21:28

Who said anything about doing this to a customers lock? It was an experiment.

by **digital_blue** » 19 Jun 2006 22:03

I've pinned a number of locks beyond MACS just for the additional challenge of picking.

db

by **Varjeal** » 20 Jun 2006 0:25

maxxed: The replies were in no way meant to be derogatory or inflammatory, they were meant to be helpful. The mentioning in the original post about the making of keys infers the non-usage of pick tools, thereby also inferring that the lock is to be used in a fashion other than for lockpicking practice.

Simply pinning a lock to violate MACS is easy to do, but does not present any challenge until either pick tools are used or a key is made for the lock.

Let us know how your experiment works out.

by **raimundo** » 20 Jun 2006 9:16

it wasn't a personal reference to you, I was refering to some old melgibson movies, look at the title of the post. your just not old enough to get the cultural reference.

by **jordyh** » 20 Jun 2006 9:30

I pinned a spare winkhaus europrofile lock with the highest and lowest pins that i had.

Driver pins: regular- spool - spool - spool - spool
bottom pins: Long - short - long - short - long

Still regret it, and still trying to make a bump key (or develop mad skills) to rotate the plug and repin it again.
I guess pinning this way can be a challenge, but it is the devil for me.

Yours,

Jordy

by **p1ckf1sh** » 20 Jun 2006 9:51

jordyh wrote:I pinned a spare winkhaus europrofile lock with the highest and lowest pins that i had.
[...]
Still regret it, and still trying to make a bump key (or develop mad skills) to rotate the plug and repin it again.
I guess pinning this way can be a challenge, but it is the devil for me.

I know how you feel. I had two of the Zeiss Ikon padlocks I recently made a picture set of (viewtopic.php?t=13475&highlight=zeissikon) and one of them was pinned so brutal I had to drill it in the end. I took my time, a few hours here and there over the course of 6 or 8 weeks, but to no avail. And it even was the EASY one (with only 2 or 3 spools), while the hard one (with 4 spools) hardly took me longer than 30-40 seconds no matter how I pinned it. Something went awfully wrong. I still regret it, hope I can source a new cylinder in that style sometime.

Regarding your Winkhaus, is it double or half cylinder? Are both sides of the cylinder beyond hope? If I were you, I'd just find a way to shim it from the back to open up. Easy if it a half-cylinder. If it is double, just remove the opposite plug, coupling etc and you have enough room to maneuver a RFID tag shim foil into the plug/keyway gap. If it is double and both sides are screwed... well say goodbye to the coupling, cut it right there around the hole and live with two half-cylinders or find a way to fix them back together.

Personally, while shimming, I find it easier to depress the current pin stack fully, then push the shim until it stops, and then release the pressure on the pin stack slowly while wiggling the shim back and forth minimally. That way you catch the shearline on the way up and don't risk jamming and denting the shim with the lip of a spool pin. I don't know about your case with the 4 spools in front, but often it is enough to just shim 2 or 3 pins, and manipulate the remaining simultanously with a rake while giving some tension.

Good luck in getting that one back to life.

by **jordyh** » 20 Jun 2006 9:56

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not in such a hurry trying to open it, as i guess that i can bump it open (and i have loads of spare keys of that model to cut).

If i can't, i'll keep it like this, as a lesson.

Yours,

Jordy

by **raimundo** » 20 Jun 2006 11:11

jord, you know the pinning, so its over macx but you could make a special bump key that is just below macs just for it? perhaps, actually this is just a wild thought, I can't say I have thought this through, but ultimately, perhaps you could get together with someone in the toool organization who has access to a sputnik to open it. its an interesting problem to think about.

by **p1ckf1sh** » 20 Jun 2006 11:50

jordyh wrote:I'm not in such a hurry trying to open it, as i guess that i can bump it open (and i have loads of spare keys of that model to cut).

No problem, I like babbling along, and most of the stuff I mentioned is well known to most of us. Considering the amount of spare keys you have in stock, it might be worth to give impressioning a shot. I've never done it before, but I never had loads of keys to spare anyways.

Your knowledge of the pinning should give you a good head start in this.

by **jordyh** » 20 Jun 2006 12:02

I've sent two mails to toool now, but they either ignore me or can't receive my emails, because i haven't gotten an answer about becoming a member for half a year (or is it longer now?).

I guess i'll meet someone at the Dutch open, i might bring it then, see if it can be opened.

Yours,

Jordy

Pinning beyond MACS

Pinning beyond MACS

beyond thunderdome

dude

jord

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