Difference in Schlage models

by **23skidoo** » 19 Jun 2006 14:14

Pardon me if this question belongs in the high security catagory, although it seems pretty safe here. Mods, if there's a problem, please delete this thread.

I had a customer come in who wanted the Schlage Primus rekeyed and since I don't have a sidewinder or the blanks I was just going to cut the top bitting deeper in my HPC and leave the sidebar alone, but the spacing didn't seem to line up with the card I use for the common Schlage.

My question is: Does the Primus have a different spacing than the common Schlage cylinder, or have I just lined it up incorrectly?

by **maxxed** » 19 Jun 2006 21:41

You really should not mess with someones high security cyls. I will remove and replace with my product if the customer does not wish to deal with the company that installed the original locks.

by **23skidoo** » 19 Jun 2006 21:53

Here's the story. The customer wasn't even aware what was installed. She just came from another country with her sister and just bought a house with these deadbolts installed. There was a bit of a language barrier and she didn't understand what a "high security" lock was. It was on a Sunday and the other local places were closed and she didn't want to pay the huge charges for the 24-hour service others charged. I didn't totally understand what the problem was, but she needed them repinned that night. I had told the customer that I don't have the proper tools for a high security lock as this, but she was still insistant (a constant 30 minutes of telling me to just do it) on me repinning or purchasing the right tools to get it done (which I will purchase when I get the money for it). That's when I figured I could just cut deeper depths to get the customer on thier way, which is what promted me to ask about Schlage's spacing.

by **zeke79** » 19 Jun 2006 22:47

It is illegal for you to recut that key period.

by **23skidoo** » 19 Jun 2006 22:49

Oh, that I didn't know. Thanks. That's all I need to know.

by **digital_blue** » 19 Jun 2006 22:52

I have a question.

What, exactly, makes it illegal? If I own the lock, and I own the key, am I not allowed to do with it whatever I choose? If I wish to re-pin the lock, and re-cut the key, can I not do this?

Is this a federal law? Is it an American federal law? Does it apply in Canada?

I'm only asking 'cause it's not the first time I've heard this about protected keyways, but I just don't get how exactly it would be illegal. Under who's jurisdiction is it illegal?

db

by **zeke79** » 19 Jun 2006 22:54

On a sidenote, you will not be able to even buy the same "tools" to service her locks. You can however buy your own sidebar code for your area that will span a set distance. You can buy as many as your distributor carries so long as no other locksmiths in your area have bought the same sidebar code. BTW, the space and depths are the same as a standard schlage C keyway. Just do not recut the key as you are asking for trouble. The locks can all be repinned with a standard .003 kit or schlage pin kit as the sidebars "SHOULD" be alike throughout the house if the locks are keyed differently. That way you are not recutting any keys, just keying all of the locks to one key she already has in her posession.

by **devildog** » 19 Jun 2006 22:54

Why? He's not creating a new blank; the only legal protection those keys have is against patent infringement, which means for you to break the law so that they can come after you, you have to manufacture a restricted blank AND then use it to make a profit. If I make a Primus, or Medeco M3, etc. blank, it's still not illegal as long as I don't use it to make money, because I haven't infringed on the patent.

You two posted just when I did; what you're asking about is exactly my point, DB--the only 'legal' protection these restricted keys have is against patent infringement, and for that to apply you have to copy the design AND you MUST somehow use your copy to turn a profit. A hobbiest like one of us can copy whatever we like, legally, as long as we don't use them to make money.

by **zeke79** » 19 Jun 2006 22:55

digital_blue wrote:I have a question.

What, exactly, makes it illegal? If I own the lock, and I own the key, am I not allowed to do with it whatever I choose? If I wish to re-pin the lock, and re-cut the key, can I not do this?

Is this a federal law? Is it an American federal law? Does it apply in Canada?

I'm only asking 'cause it's not the first time I've heard this about protected keyways, but I just don't get how exactly it would be illegal. Under who's jurisdiction is it illegal?

db

You can likely do whatever you want with the key as it is yours. As a lockie though, you have to buy the rights to the system to cut keys.

by **maxxed** » 19 Jun 2006 22:55

I carry some kik cylinders for such circumstances

by **digital_blue** » 19 Jun 2006 22:58

zeke79 wrote:You can likely do whatever you want with the key as it is yours. As a lockie though, you have to buy the rights to the system to cut keys.

Alright... but... still.... what makes it illegal for a lockie to do this? I can see what dd is saying about patent infringement, but modifying a key seems as though it would be a different story? How in the world would Schlage, or any other company for that matter, come after you for anything? On what grounds? Under what jurisdiction? See what I mean?

db

by **zeke79** » 19 Jun 2006 22:58

I can tell you this for a fact. If someone brought us a key that happened to be our same sidebar bitting but wasnt from us and said duplicate it, we cannot. If they said recut it, we cannot. Who knows what they are going to use that recut key for?? I can come pretty darn close to decoding a schlage key by sight. Does that mean I should be able to take my house key to another lockie and tell him to recut it to a master key I visually decoded at work?

by **23skidoo** » 19 Jun 2006 22:59

zeke79 wrote:I can tell you this for a fact. If someone brought us a key that happened to be our same sidebar bitting but wasnt from us and said duplicate it, we cannot. If they said recut it, we cannot. Who knows what they are going to use that recut key for?? I can come pretty darn close to decoding a schlage key by sight. Does that mean I should be able to take my house key to another lockie and tell him to recut it to a master key I visually decoded at work?

Well, isn't bringing in a key to dupe and bringing in 3 cylinders to work on are two different sides?

by **zeke79** » 19 Jun 2006 23:00

If schlage finds out, they pull your rights to sell the system. How do they find out, I dont know. If they do, that's alot of lost business though.

by **digital_blue** » 19 Jun 2006 23:01

Ah yes, now that's a different matter. A lockie making a good, ethical decision based on good, common sense security thinking makes perfect sense to me.

I just don't see the whole illegal thing, and as I said, since I've heard this before, I thought I'd ask a bit about it.

Carry on then...

db

Difference in Schlage models

Difference in Schlage models

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