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Beginner's question LV2

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

Beginner's question LV2

Postby maaltan » 17 Mar 2004 23:25

Ok, I have purchased a "faultless" brand double cylinder deadlock assembly to practice on. I have finally worked my way up to the full 5 pins. Whooh. :)

I have a few questions/problems/observations though. I am not 100% sure why my actions work.

First off, I've noticed that when i pin sets there is an almost inpercevable turning of the plug in the direction of torque. If a pin is false set low it will not move. If it is false set high the plug rotates against torque slightly..

On a side note, Believe what the experienced people say about tension. Your probably using TOO much. In fact, I've found thier suggestions to be too much. the weight of the tension wrench itself is enough to bind the first pin in my practice lock.

Something I have noticed is that sometimes supposedly set pins will pop back down when I set another pin. Not that big of a deal I guess, just not sure why it would be happening.

The biggest question I have is sometimes the lock will pop before I even set the 2nd or 3rd pin. I assume I have inadvertantly moved some of the other pins but I can not visualize how. Any suggestions, comments?

Also, I've found that when I use the full ball/circle pick, the lock will pop almost instantainously, but I have no feel for whats going on. This does not work on any other locks.

And on a final note. I will NEVER lock anything in a filing cabinet again. Those locks are pathetic. I single pass with the sawtooth rake and every filing cabinet I have tried it on popped. I tried an paperclip standby just to try a "whats on hand"approach. 3 passes it popped. I must try my desk locks at work since I believe they have the disks also.

Also, what is the cheapest someone could find a small pin set. I am wanting to get some spool and mushroom pins to test in my easy lock so I can see what they feel like. I keep reading about them but just can't visualize them. I am also interested in finding a bunch of cheap/free practice locks. The local locksmith is ...well... protective of his market. says something about giving me old locks can compromise the security of his clients. I noticed that one of the keys he did was straight except for one notch which was maybe 2 levels higher.

thanks again



ps. I am sure I have put this in "got questions" this time.
maaltan
 
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Postby Luke » 18 Mar 2004 3:09

O.K to all those questions:- You're doing fine, not to much tension - just a cheapo lock... Pin kit.. Locksmiths Supplies - Melbourne is where i got my OVERPRICED set but whatcha gonna do. As for spools - you can get them at a locksmith supply place too. I havnt brought any yet so Bon Chance.
"I took the path less travelled by and that made all the difference"
Luke
 
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Joined: 12 Jul 2003 6:27
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Postby David_Parker » 18 Mar 2004 13:34

Thats a heavy tension wrench, if its own weight is enough to bind the pins.
Luke is right, you seem to be doing fine. As for the lock opening on the 3rd or 2nd pin set, thats your picks. Sometimes by merely having them in there, their height can raise the pins to the shear-line. I've encountered dozens of Master Locks where the key configuration oddly resembles a half-diamond. I would stick it in, don't even have to touch it, and the lock would open with a turn.

Odd preference on the FullBall/circle. I used to select that one for wafers...but alas, as you said, a few quick swipes of the rake and blammo, that bastard turns.

I've acquired a good deal of my locks from friends and torn down buildings. Construction workers never seemed to mind me walking around, ripping apart the locksets on doors. Just don't take their gate locks. That ain't right.

Lockpicks.com has a few pin kits. Lockpickersmall.com is where I got my small Lab .003 kit. I can't remember how much it was, but its more than enough in my pinning jobs. (not that I have any really)

-Dave.
Never underestimate the half-diamond.
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Postby Chucklz » 18 Mar 2004 19:20

Try asking a local smith to dump pins into a coffee can (bring him/her one) for you on rekey jobs. You will get a whole bunch of pins for free, but you will need to make measurements etc if you want to use them in most situations.
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Postby Mad Mick » 18 Mar 2004 21:29

I'm trying to decypher your post:

First off, I've noticed that when i pin sets there is an almost inpercevable turning of the plug in the direction of torque.


This is indicative of a pin setting and the plug rotating slightly to bind the next pin......

If a pin is false set low it will not move.


This indicates that a lower pin is still below the shear-line and the upper pin is bound between the plug and the housing....

If it is false set high the plug rotates against torque slightly..


This again, could indicate that you have a spool or mushroom pin. As you try to raise the lower pin, the shape of the upper pin, which is bound between the plug and the cylinder, tries to push the plug back against your torque so that it can pass into the upper pin stack.

Something I have noticed is that sometimes supposedly set pins will pop back down when I set another pin.


This is usually indicative of the lock having 'trick-pins'. When encountering 'trick pins', try to determine the order of picking the pins - this is normally not straight-forward. Some of the time, locks will pick 'back to front', or 'front to back'. With trick pins, this method is best not adhered to. A lock with 'trick pins' may have to be picked several times before successfully opening.
Image If it ain't broke.....pull it down and see how it works anyway!
Mad Mick
 
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Postby maaltan » 18 Mar 2004 22:46

The lock I have been toying with has straight plain drivers with slightly beveled (top and bottom) key pins. I figured these beveled pins were easier to mass produce for cheap locks so I didnt think anything about them.

When you say "trick pins" do you mean an intentional security device or do you just mean a pin that is just tricky? Like annoying and unpredictable.

I went out and got me a couple of $3 padlocks to play with. First was a "mountain security" lock. This appears to be a generic walmart brand.
The other one I got was a brinks with spool pins. I got this one sort of a "nirvana" lock. Once I pop it I have become one with the locks and have achieved the next level. Or am I taking this "projection" step in the MIT guide too far :)

Well. The cheapo padlock appears to be more secure that I expected. It feels ... wierd for lack of a better word and lack of experience. The pins set. .. nothing happens. I push harder and the pins set again farther up . ... push really hard and the pins set again and so on until they are flush with the case.. The picture on the back implies that it has serrated driver pins and key pins and the arrow pointing to it says "Pin tumbler security"

Oops sorry for another long post. well thanks for all your help so far.
maaltan
 
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Joined: 16 Mar 2004 10:57

Postby Chucklz » 18 Mar 2004 23:30

Nice beginning selection of locks I would say. I wouldn't carry the zen so far as the Brinks lock is concerned. An Abus discus would probably be more like it.
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Postby maaltan » 18 Mar 2004 23:59

I think i saw one of those in the store. They are padlocks that run about $25 US right? Looks like a high tech hockey puck with a very short but very thick hasp right? The pins looked funny also.
maaltan
 
Posts: 7
Joined: 16 Mar 2004 10:57

Mountain Security

Postby CatCube » 12 May 2004 7:17

Hello all, I'm a newbie to both the forum and to lockpicking. I just bought one of the 14 pick sets from LPS last night, so now I'm waiting with bated breath for those.

In the meantime, I went to Wal-Mart to get some locks to screw with with safety pins and a nail clipper for a tension wrench. I picked up a Master Lock padlock (brass case, 4-pin) and a Mountain Security doorknob lock (5-pin)

I took the Mountain Security lock apart. I'll be darned if the SOB didn't have spool pins in the number 2 & 4 stacks. (Really stupidly trashed the knob part in the process--live and learn, I guess. I learned a lot for eight bucks. As an aside for other newbies--other topics have mentioned using a follower behind the plug when taking it out to retain the driver pins. They're not kidding. It took me ten minutes to figure out how to put one back in with the meager tools I had at hand, and I damaged a couple of springs in the process.)

Does anyone know what kind of skill level these locks are? The keyway is much narrower than the KwikSet I have on my cabin front door, but that looks like it may be due to a lot of wear. I was wondering if the tolerances might be tighter, and if that would make it a little more difficult.

I've put the lock back together with two pins (non-spool of course). Assuming I'm right about the standard pin numbering scheme, they're in the 5 & 3 slots, right at the entrance to the keyway, and right in the middle, respectively. Is this a good position to try to learn on? Should they be farther back so I can't see them when trying to pick them? Or should they both be in front so I can see what's going on until I get good?
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Re: Mountain Security

Postby CitySpider » 12 May 2004 9:52

Great first post, Catcube. I hope my answers help you out.

First of all, go get yourself a master lock #3, or similar -- NOT the brass kind. It's only a couple bucks, it'll be easier, AND it's a known quantity. Virtually everyone here can pick them, so anyone can help you out if you have difficulties.

Second, without the spool pins, I'd put MS somewhere about halfway between Kwikset and Schlage. Now, obviously, an easy-pinned Schlage is going to be easier to pick than a hard-pinned Kwikset, so it's a little hard to describe effectively.

3) I always trash the "knob part." Much easier to just hold the cylinder in my hand.

4) Yeah, always use a plug follower. To be honest, though, I don't even _have_ one, and I've done a couple of locks using the tweezers from my SAK as pin tweezers, and the plug/some shim stock/bic pens as a plug follower. It's incredibly not fun at all, and had me moving a good pair of tweezers and a good follower to the top of my stuff-to-get-list really quickly.

5) Assuming /I'm/ right about the standard pin numbering scheme, that'd be positions 1 and 3, but no guarantees I'm right. I'd say that they're fine, although if you ever do it again, I'd put them next to each other.

6) If you don't want to be able to see them, just don't look into the keyway. I'm a big proponent of _not_ looking into it. You look into it at the very beginning if, for example, it's an American padlock, just to see if the bottom pins are serrated, and then that's it. Otherwise, only if you think that it's broken, or there's something stuck in it, or any number of other unforseeable things.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to post.

Spider
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Postby Mad Mick » 12 May 2004 16:35

'Spider's right about the numbering, pin/wafer 1 is the first pin/wafer in the lock, the one nearest to the keyhole. A key bitting code goes from the bow (handle) to the tip of the key blade.
Image If it ain't broke.....pull it down and see how it works anyway!
Mad Mick
 
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plug follower....

Postby maaltan » 12 May 2004 19:25

hmmm .. plug follower. never thought of that.

Anyway, my hands are not very nimble in that way (hard to explain). Its easier for me to just replace the springs and pins one by one rather than try to hold them in with one hand while i repin the plug. Do they actually make a device the keeps the drivers from falling out?
maaltan
 
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Rekeying, pins, springs and other lost parts

Postby Romstar » 12 May 2004 22:45

Go to this link:

http://www.lockpickersmall.com/lp/pinkits.html

Scroll down. Toward the bottom of the page, you will find plug followers and "pin tweezers". These are the two most important tools you can have when disassembling locks.

Once you have the lock body in your hand, you basically have 2-3 parts not including the pins and springs. These would be the cylinder, plug and latch or cam turning lever. The turning lever is generally regarded as a single part, even though it commonly consists of two or three seperate pieces. In many Yale locks, the turning lever is held in place by a long, flat "c" shaped spring clip. On many other locks, it is held in place by a circular plate and two small screws. Schlage, and Schlage type cylinders will are often held together with a threaded end cap, locked in place with a spring loaded retainer pin. If you have this type, depress the pin, and turn the cap.

Remove the turning lever by compressing the clip, and pushing it out, or by removing the screws from the plate, or by removing the end cap. This leaves you with the cylinder and the plug. Inside are those magical pins and springs. If yours is not attached in a similar fashion, it should be simple enough to figure out how to remove it.

Now, insert the key, or pick the lock. Rotate the plug about 45 degrees, then tilt the cylinder until the key way is positioned upright. Place the plug follower at the rear of the plug, and slowly push it into the cylinder. The plug follower will keep the driver pins, and springs inside the cylinder while the plug falls into your hand. Try to keep the plug level so you do not drop the lower pins. Place the plug aside for the moment.

Now, if you are simply setting up a practice lock, continue pushing the plug follower into the lock from the rear. Stop when you get it flush with the rear of the lock. Now, place a finger, or your thumb over the rear of the cylinder. Pull the plug follower slowly and gently toward the front of the lock. You should hear the rear most driver pin and spring pop out of the cylinder. At this stage, you should know how many of the drivers you are removing. Place the driver and spring into a small container such as an egg carton and then continue slowly onto the next driver and spring.

If for example, you are setting up a two pin practice cylinder, you would stop after removing the drivers and springs from positions #5, #4, and #3.

Pick up the plug and place your finger over pins 1-4. Tilt the plug so that the last pin falls out. Put it into the container holding the driver pin and spring from that position. Move your finger, and repeat until you have only two pins left.

Now, push the plug follower into the cylinder from the front. When it is flush with the face of the lock, pick up the plug and continue pushing it through with the actual plug. Be sure that the plug is tilted 45 degrees, so that the #2 pin doesn't catch on the #1 driver. Re-install your turning latch or cam and practice away.

Now, putting all this stuff back.

I find that the best plug followers are made from a solid dowel of material. Wood preferably, or some other non metallic material. This prevents the follower from scratching the smooth inside surface of the cylinder. In addition, the follower will have a small groove in the end. This groove will be just the right size to support a spring and driver pin.

Remove the turning latch or cam again. Pick the lock, or insert the key. Turn the plug 45 degrees, and then place the follower at the rear of the plug. Push the follower into the cylinder, displacing the plug. Be careful not to drop the pins.

I will assume for the moment that you are going to reinsert all of the pins and drivers. Push or pull the follower into the cylinder until you can see the hole for position #3 (remember, we left pins 1 and 2 in the lock). Rotate the plug follower until the groove in the end is aligned vertically with the hole.

Using the pin tweezers, pick up the spring for position #3, and lay it into the groove in the follower. Do the same for the driver pin. Make sure that you have the spring going into the hole first, or you're going to have a whole new problem. :wink:

Using the tweezers, or a convienient pick, push the spring into the hole with the driver pin, continue pushing until the driver is into the hole. Gently push the plug follower into the cylinder from the front until position #3 is covered, and you are ready for position 4. Repeat the proceedure with positions four and five. Your plug follower should now be flush with the rear of the lock. Push it through a little more so an equal amount is sticking out of the front and rear of the cylinder.

Place pins 3, 4 and 5 back into the corresponding holes of the plug.
Make the follower flush with the face of the cylinder.
Tilt the plug so that the pins are not yet lined up. 45 degrees again.
Push the follower through with the plug, until it falls out.
Use your finger to rotate the plug until it locks into position.
Re-attach the turning lever or cam in the proper manner.

You are done reassembling the lock.

Rekeying a lock is pretty much the same, with the exception of only having to remove, shuffle, or replace the pins in the plug. Of course, making a new key is involved. Since you are only picking the thing, don't be too concerned about that part, and simply shuffle your pins around the plug. Just remember that they original key will not work unless you put the pins back into the original positions. So, once you shuffle them, you have no choice but to pick the thing. Or shim it, but that's something else altogether.

I know this has been long, and I hope it does someone some good.

Happy picking,
Romstar
Last edited by Romstar on 12 May 2005 4:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Romstar
 
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Re: Rekeying, pins, springs and other lost parts

Postby Pheniox » 12 May 2004 22:53

Romstar wrote:Go to this link:

http://www.lockpickersmall.com/lp/pinkits.html

Scroll down. Toward the bottom of the page, you will find plug followers and "pin tweezers". These are the two most important tools you can have when disassembling locks.

Once you have the lock body in your hand, you basically have 2-3 parts not including the pins and springs. These would be the cylinder, plug and latch or cam turning lever. The turning lever is generally regarded as a single part, even though it commonly consists of two or three seperate pieces. In many Yale locks, the turning lever is held in place by a long, flat "c" shaped spring clip. On many other locks, it is held in place by a circular plate and two small screws. Schlage, and Schlage type cylinders will are often held together with a threaded end cap, locked in place with a spring loaded retainer pin. If you have this type, depress the pin, and turn the cap.

Remove the turning lever by compressing the clip, and pushing it out, or by removing the screws from the plate, or by removing the end cap. This leaves you with the cylinder and the plug. Inside are those magical pins and springs. If yours is not attached in a similar fashion, it should be simple enough to figure out how to remove it.

Now, insert the key, or pick the lock. Rotate the plug about 45 degrees, then tilt the cylinder until the key way is positioned upright. Place the plug follower at the rear of the plug, and slowly push it into the cylinder. The plug follower will keep the driver pins, and springs inside the cylinder while the plug falls into your hand. Try to keep the plug level so you do not drop the lower pins. Place the plug aside for the moment.

Now, if you are simply setting up a practice lock, continue pushing the plug follower into the lock from the rear. Stop when you get it flush with the rear of the lock. Now, place a finger, or your thumb over the rear of the cylinder. Pull the plug follower slowly and gently toward the front of the lock. You should hear the rear most driver pin and spring pop out of the cylinder. At this stage, you should know how many of the drivers you are removing. Place the driver and spring into a small container such as an egg carton and then continue slowly onto the next driver and spring.

If for example, you are setting up a two pin practice cylinder, you would stop after removing the drivers and springs from positions #5, #4, and #3.

Pick up the plug and place your finger over pins 1-4. Tilt the plug so that the last pin falls out. Put it into the container holding the driver pin and spring from that position. Move your finger, and repeat until you have only two pins left.

Now, push the plug follower into the cylinder from the front. When it is flush with the face of the lock, pick up the plug and continue pushing it through with the actual plug. Be sure that the plug is tilted 45 degrees, so that the #2 pin doesn't catch on the #1 driver. Re-install your turning latch or cam and practice away.

Now, putting all this stuff back.

I find that the best plug followers are made from a solid dowel of material. Wood preferably, or some other non metallic material. This prevents the follower from scratching the smooth inside surface of the cylinder. In addition, the follower will have a small groove in the end. This groove will be just the right size to support a spring and driver pin.

Remove the turning latch or cam again. Pick the lock, or insert the key. Turn the plug 45 degrees, and then place the follower at the rear of the plug. Push the follower into the cylinder, displacing the plug. Be careful not to drop the pins.

I will assume for the moment that you are going to reinsert all of the pins and drivers. Push or pull the follower into the cylinder until you can see the hole for position #3 (remember, we left pins 1 and 2 in the lock). Rotate the plug follower until the groove in the end is aligned vertically with the hole.

Using the pin tweezers, pick up the spring for position #3, and lay it into the groove in the follower. Do the same for the driver pin. Make sure that you have the spring going into the hole first, or you're going to have a whole new problem.

Using the tweezers, or a convienient pick, push the spring into the hole with the driver pin, continue pushing until the driver is into the hole. Gently push the plug follower into the cylinder from the front until position #3 is covered, and you are ready for position 4. Repeat the proceedure with positions four and five. Your plug follower should now be flush with the rear of the lock. Push it through a little more so an equal amount is sticking out of the front and rear of the cylinder.

Place pins 3, 4 and 5 back into the corresponding holes of the plug.
Make the follower flush with the face of the cylinder.
Tilt the plug so that the pins are not yet lined up. 45 degrees again.
Push the follower through with the plug, until it falls out.
Use your finger to rotate the plug until it locks into position.
Re-attach the turning lever or cam in the proper manner.

You are done reassembling the lock.

Rekeying a lock is pretty much the same, with the exception of only having to remove, shuffle, or replace the pins in the plug. Of course, making a new key is involved. Since you are only picking the thing, don't be too concerned about that part, and simply shuffle your pins around the plug. Just remember that they original key will not work unless you put the pins back into the original positions. So, once you shuffle them, you have no choice but to pick the thing. Or shim it, but that's something else altogether.

I know this has been long, and I hope it does someone some good.

Happy picking,
Romstar
shouldn't you be picking locks instead of posting how to build and disasemble a nuke? :roll:
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Nuke? What nuke?

Postby Romstar » 12 May 2004 23:07

shouldn't you be picking locks instead of posting how to build and disasemble a nuke?


, I was taking a drink when I saw that someone had quoted my entire looooonnnnngggggg post, and then I near choked when I read the above quote.

Does it really look that complicated Pheniox? :lol:

Romstar
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