Hacker in Theory

[David_Parker]

Ahh. I remember that post.

I was referring to the connotation of the word, which i.m.o. deals with computers.

Ignorance on my part.


-Dave.

[c3r3br4l]

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:33 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WhiteHat wrote:

"Cracking" on the other hand is different and illegal


hacking isn't illegal? cracking is just the lamers way of doing it, without any real skill.

picking is to hacking... as pickguns are to cracking.

good anology right there

in a word...no. cracking is not the lamer way of doing it, thats a skiddy. a cracker, as far as hacking goes, usually tends go be the one who acts maliciously. a hacker would usually hack a site to see if it was safe or not, for example, say you were setting up a website(subdomain, not domain), and you wanted to know if your website would be secure, you would attempt to hack that site and try to gain access to files of other users, if you couldn't its a safe site, end of story. a cracker, however would take the next step and destroy files on the server. as far as lockpick guns go, that would be a lockpicking skiddy if there is such a thing, using prepackaged exploits instead of doing it himself. as far as the lock being your own, hacking wouldn't just be picking a lock that you own, it could also be picking a lock you dont own, relocking it, and leaving, the illegal cracking part would come in if you unlocked a door and stole something.

________________________
i dunno, maybe ur watching me, bud did you ever stop to think that maybe im watching you too.

[David_Parker]

I'd say a lockpick gun is more like a script kiddie, rather than those who write their own programs.

-Dave.

[i_want_to_pick]

Normally you would have to at least attempt to find the info yourself but I have nothing better to do so here's a link, lots of great pictures of picks and tension tools with a ruler in the pictures for scale: http://www.crypto.com/photos/misc/picks/

Matt

[WhiteHat]

just thought I'd post this:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

this is a FAQ about hacking in general, including attitude, taboos, etc.

quite good.

Relevant quote:

The hacker mind-set is not confined to this software-hacker culture. There are people who apply the hacker attitude to other things, like electronics or music — actually, you can find it at the highest levels of any science or art. Software hackers recognize these kindred spirits elsewhere and may call them "hackers" too — and some claim that the hacker nature is really independent of the particular medium the hacker works in. But in the rest of this document we will focus on the skills and attitudes of software hackers, and the traditions of the shared culture that originated the term `hacker'.

There is another group of people who loudly call themselves hackers, but aren't. These are people (mainly adolescent males) who get a kick out of breaking into computers and phreaking the phone system. Real hackers call these people `crackers' and want nothing to do with them. Real hackers mostly think crackers are lazy, irresponsible, and not very bright, and object that being able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many journalists and writers have been fooled into using the word `hacker' to describe crackers; this irritates real hackers no end.

having said that, not all crackers are lazy and dumb, but most are irresponsible, like most criminals..

anyway..

[Mad Mick]

My two cents on this one......

cracking is just the lamers way of doing it, without any real skill.

This is not a 'dig' at Plot, just an opinion on hacking/cracking.

IMO, cracking (AKA reverse engineering), although legally/morally/ethically wrong, is the process of taking someone else's creation apart, modifying it, then rebuilding it to suit your own needs.

Hacking is the process of discovering a weakness in a certain application and exploiting it to achieve your requirements.

Both of these processes take a reasonable amount of skill and understanding of the application, to circumvent the security measures contained within, whether it be analog, digital, mechanical, animal, vegetable, mineral............

Where the line should be drawn, is when a situation regarding the loss of financial gain to the creator occurs, i.e. the 'warez' scene using computer programs as an example. There is nothing wrong with modifying something that you have paid for, to make it work the way you want it. Vehicle tuners, customisers, racers etc. have been modifying cars for years. These processes involve the legitimate purchase of subsequent parts to complete the process. The 'warez' scene however, consists of taking someone's hard work apart, bastardizing it, then rebuilding and releasing it at no cost to the end user. I'm sure that anything not related to computers is less likely to be cracked in a 'warez' sense. I don't know of anyone who is willing to buy and modify a product, then give it away in numbers for free.

We, as lock pickers, can be compared to hackers/crackers in some way. We pick (hack) the lock. We are then able to rekey (crack) the lock to make it behave the way we want it to behave. Granted, some locks are made to be rekeyed, but if you look at the some of the tutorials available (my own included - Master No 3) we are modifying something which is not designed to be modified.

a cracker, however would take the next step and destroy files on the server.

I also disagree with this quote. This is usually the realm of the anarchist hacker. As I stated before, cracking (in a pure sense) is making something that you own behave in a way that you would like it to behave. How many people here have modified a paper clip to pick a lock.......

[plot]

hackers act malaciously just as crackers.

ever heard of "cracking" ?? that's where crackers was coined. no real skill.


hackers make the programs, crackers use them.

a hacker isn't some glorious finder of information that should be free blah blah blah... he violates the integrity of a system one way or another, sometimes by brute force. what he does then is up to him... delete all the files, or whatever else...

[Mad Mick]

....which is where I was trying to differentiate between hackers and crackers. I don't condone the activity of either type, although ethical hackers have their use from reporting exploits to sysops, network security personnel, etc.

I still believe (having done some software reverse engineering from a personal research perspective) that cracking is not just relative to the 'monkey-brained' masses, there is some form of intelligence involved in working out the path to the instruction steps which contain the algorithms required to decode encryption keys etc. I may be a 'grease-monkey', but that doesn't mean my 141IQ has to go to waste, this is the job that I have chosen to do and I enjoy doing it!!!

hackers make the programs, crackers use them.

Crackers do actually make their own programs. Again, I don't condone the activity, but crackers are usually competent programmers and are quite capable of making their own keygens and patch-makers from scratch.

[c3r3br4l]

ok, time to straighten stuff out

1. (most of)hacking is ethical, hacking would be finding ways to bend the system to your will.

2. hacking is a prerequisite for cracking

3. a skiddy is someone who uses programs where you just push a button and something gets hacked, no skill needed. yes, its true, crackers write their own programs too, just as hackers do.

4. for the most part, hackers are not the malicious ones, those are the crackers. the origional term hacker has been claimed by many places, but i believe it was mit who first coined the phrase, back then a hacker was the same as a programer, bending the computer to their will.

5. plot, there is nothing glorious about being a hacker, a "glorious hacker" is whats known as a media .

as far as that quote whitehat put in, that basically describes the nowadays skiddy. and the hacker howto? what are u gonna suggest next, the ethical hacking book you found at the local book store? the art of zen? mabey we should all be ninjas too. get real there is no "hacker mindset"

as far as mad mick's post, you got a rather skewed look on reality bro, once again, a cracker is basically a malicious hacker. most crackers have hacking skills, they just choose to use them maliciously. hope this explains it a bit better for u ppl here.

[Mad Mick]

most crackers have hacking skills

This is the point I was trying to get across!!

they just choose to use them maliciously.

Again, use the 'warez' scene as an example. Incidentally, have you looked at +orc's and +gthorne's actual views upon cracking?

as far as mad mick's post, you got a rather skewed look on reality bro

See above. And whose reality is that compared to c3r3br4l? Maybe I should sign off as M4D M1CK, just to be 'leet'.

[CitySpider]

hackers make the programs, crackers use them.

a hacker isn't some glorious finder of information that should be free blah blah blah... he violates the integrity of a system one way or another, sometimes by brute force. what he does then is up to him... delete all the files, or whatever else...

Where exactly did you get these terms? Folks up above, myself included, are referencing the people who invented both the practice and the terminology. You're, it looks like, just telling us your opinions?

Yes, it was MIT, and no, it wasn't just a slang term for programmer. Who wrote the MIT Guide to Lockpicking, etc.

Do some research. It's pretty easy to tell what's authentic on the internet. Lots of misinformation out there, but most of it is dumb. I just read about how samurai used to learn to jump higher by planting a corn seed and jumping over it every day as it grew. Uh, problem there... same logic can apply to this, just a little less obvious.

The terms are MISUSED by the general public. That makes them wrong. It doesn't make their definitions right.

Oh, and whoever equated cracking with reverse engineering -- one of us is unclear on what reverse engineering is. I always understood it to be inductive engineering, working from a finished product and ending up with how to create that finished product. Am I wrong?

[David_Parker]

Argh, tried to register but I clicked "under 13...," doh! (Cause I'm really not.) But if you don't believe, I do not care.

This is David_Parker's bro. Wouldn't define myself as a "hacker" but an uber comp nerd. I don't stay up late doiing malicious programming of any sort. Just like to see what my limits are as far as what my computer has to offer me. Like parallel processing with muiltple xbox's. Dude, check it out, it's so cool!

More importantly when it comes to a defining the word "hacker" I wouldn't bother trying. There are so many muiltple meanings, trying to effectively communicate what you are trying to say becomes a disastor. Furthermore, I wouldn't try to define "cracker" either. The many definitions I've come across are so oddly familar to a "hacker," I see no hero or villan in either word.

In conclusion, something that has helped me in trying to say what I want to say is to use words that accurately and precisely say what I mean. For instance, a friend *NOT ME*, who stays up late incessently working on projects that have his computer(s) run extranious programs void of any meaning at all, whatsoever --> is an uber nerd! Or, the dark side, any computer user that has committed a crime using there computer --> is a computer criminal. Using that word I further clarify what I am communicating by explaining what the person has done.

That's all folks, hope this post has been inciteful. ~Jonny#Five

[David_Parker]

....and thats the last time I let him on my username.

Shouldn't this post be locked? Maybe? Don't know....*inserts inappropriate words*


-Dave.

[plot]

i get my terminology from when i was in the whole 'scene' ... not that i was a malacious hacker or some hotshot or anything like that... i still regret what little i did do though. i helped others by giving them certain knowledge while knowing they were going to use it for nothing but bad.

...thankfully i could never bring myself to break the law by stealing CC's and carding and whatever else.

[WhiteHat]

hacking got me my current job...

it was similar to me going up to someone's door, finding it open, telling them that because it's open, it's very easy for people to get in and steal/wreck stuff.

they asked if I wanted a job helping to secure their door.