tubular lock question

[GilbertGrape]

Hey guys, i was searching the forum to see if this was already answered and didnt see anything about it, so im sorry if this was already answered...i tried!

Why is it that your only supposed to put a tubular lock in the fully locked/unlocked position? Do you break the lock if you leave it in the middle or what? I would appreciate some information about this as i do not know much about tubular locks.

Thanks!!

[CitySpider]

Good question, and kudos for searching first.

Here's one for you: where'd you get the idea that you're not supposed to leave a tubular lock in the middle?

I've never played with tubular locks, so I'm honestly curious. Conceptually
I'd imagine that it'd put some serious wear on the springs and might make it somewhat more complicated to unlock later, but don't listen to me -- I'm sure someone who knows Tubulars will answer soon.

[David_Parker]

I belive that if you do, the lock gets stuck, and you can no longer open it. I've heard that if you leave it, you have to repick it.


-Dave.

[technik]

i dont own one, but from what i undestand, it is for a 'leave no traces' thing. If you have the loc half way between locked and unlocked, there is only one way to get it their, by picking it. At least if it is open or locked, you coud say you 'found the key', or 'it was already open', but you cant say, 'i found some picks so i picked it'. Get what i mean? also, if you leave the lock half ay, the locking bar will be at half way, which will lock the door if closed, or prevent the door being shut if open. I read this on Totse or sum other crap site, so its from a 'stealing' point of view, but i thought i wuld let you know what i know.

Dont take my word for it though

[salzi684]

If you leave a tubular lock in a "part of the way" position you can't use the key to turn the lock the rest of the way unless you grind off the outter tab on the key.

[horwichg]

salzi684 is right when he said...

you can't use the key to turn the lock the rest of the way unless you grind off the outter tab on the key.

If you look at a tubular lock you will see that there is a notch in the locked position, and sometimes a notch in the opened position. These notches allow the key to be inserted and/or removed at the right spot, so you can not accidentley leave the lock half open. If you pick the lock halfway, then there are no notches to insert the key into, so you can't use the key unless the outer nub is flattened off.

Hope this helps
Horwichg

[Chucklz]

I beleive the Gemmatic locks use a similar concept to "rekey" the locks. I have never taken one of these locks apart though.

[Mad Mick]

I belive that if you do, the lock gets stuck, and you can no longer open it. I've heard that if you leave it, you have to repick it.

This is correct in part, due to this:

you can't use the key to turn the lock the rest of the way unless you grind off the outter tab on the key.

I don't have a lot of experience with tubular locks, but what I do know/have picked up from picking my own tubular locks, is that the small notch on the outside/spline on the inside, of the key is what turns the plug. The notch on the outside of the key serves to prevent the key from being removed, until the plug is returned to the neutral position. As stated by other users, if the notch is removed, the key can be withdrawn/inserted with the lock being in any position. This is the same as using a tubular pick, or manual picking. When using a tubular pick (I don't own one) all the guess work is done for you by the tension ring on the tool. This ring serves to adjust the 'feelers' via friction. The springs exert force upon the pins. Assuming that the springs are all of the same wire-gauge (which they usually are - maybe this is something that the lock manufacturers could vary as a security measure), they should equally exert the same force at a given amount of compression. With the friction of the tension ring on the picking tool being a constant, the lower pins (using identical springs and being of equal length), should be pushed to the shear line with the same force. The important part of this 'tug-o-war' is the length of the pins which contact the key. This gives the bitting of the key.

For those of us who have picked tubular locks, the depth to which a pin is able to be pressed, is an indicator as to how deeply a pin should be pressed. A pin which is resistant to being pressed deeply is a low setting pin and conversely, a pin which easily presses deeply is a high setting pin, when compared to a pin tumbler lock.

The method for determining the depth-of-pin setting (for me), is to work clock-wise around the pins, noting which pins are able to be pressed the deepest, and remember those first i.e., 2,4,6,7. You may/will also find some pins which set some way between low and high. The pins which tend to bind first are usually the deepest ones, due to their top pin length.

Anyway, getting back to the concern posted by GilbertGrape with regards to damaging springs etc., I personally don't see any possibility of this happening due to the same springs(with the same compression rate) being installed in all positions where a pin is installed.

Sorry guys, I've talked myself to sleep now, I'll add to this later........zzzzz

[Chucklz]

Mick,

In ACE II locks, there are springs with differing spring constants, but I still see no way to damage them as you stated.

[Mad Mick]

Perhaps this is an attempt to make picking with a tubular pick more difficult?

[Chucklz]

Yes, I beleive thats what the intent was.

[jesserparker]

mad mick,
perhaps you can answer my question. in your post you said you don't have a tubular lock pick, yet you manage to pick them regardless. how do you go about picking them without one? thanks.

[Mad Mick]

I have a ground down Allen key/wrench that fits snugly into the notch in the plug (beside where the ball bearing is fitted) which is used as a tension wrench. For picking the pins I have a tool which I'll describe as a blunt ended needle with a handle on it. It's actually hardened steel rod which has been turned down to the required diameter to fit between the plug and cylinder. The handle is made from heatshrink tubing.

I pick the pin set as required, turn the plug 1/8th turn (which resets the pins again) then repeat until the lock opens. My Kryptonite padlock and cheapo motorcycle lock both open in two operations. Closing the tubular lock is another matter.... If it has a return spring (which the Kryptonite does) picking back to the position where the key would be able to be withdrawn involves playing with the tension. If no return spring is fitted (as with the motorcycle lock) just applying tension the opposite way works fine.

I do this just as a hobby, so I'm not 'on the clock'. I'd rather do the work myself than have a 'wonder tool' make it easy for me. However, if I were to pick tubular locks to make a living, a proper tubular pick would be the highest priority on my list.......time is money!

Hope that clears it up for you.

P.S. I have the same opinion on snap guns, electric picks etc.

[plot]

are Ace locks expensive? like, cost wise compared to normal key locks?

i was pumping my gas today and i noticed there was an Ace tubular lock on the gas pump... all it seamed to do was cover up paper for receipts... probably some internal switches, seamed like high security for something with no real value.

unless there's a way to pump gas for free from inside...

(anyone else notice locks and what brand of locks are on everything now? everytime i walk through a door it seams my gaze falls on the lock and the name printed on it...)

[Mad Mick]

Not sure on the cost of Ace locks, I've never bought one by itself.

everytime i walk through a door it seams my gaze falls on the lock and the name printed on it...)

Lol, I know what you mean, I'm usually thinking "I bet I could pick that" too!