This is the old Locksmith business info area and will be broken down to fill in the new sections below.
by Wallaby » 18 Jul 2006 1:07
good point toomush, I went on a one day course last year with a well respected locksmith only to find they could not teach to save their lives ... in the field of training, the quality of the trainer/s is an important factor ...
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Wallaby
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by Chris B » 18 Jul 2006 5:08
Good morning all,
I must agree with you Wallaby there are some bad Trainers – however, on the other hand a Trainer can get a bad name when he gets a bad student who is un-teachable. It is this type of student who will make the most noise and sadly people will listen to him/her and will make any trainer look bad.
For example: I take people on occasionally to advance them in the skills which they already have, and last year I took on a person who himself does some training courses, and this person, had absolutely no in-depth understanding of locks, although I had been expecting him to already have a good level of locksmith skills. He was capable of quoting chapter and verse regarding various information about locks, he had no skill of hand and after a day’s tuition only managed to open 1 lock, no matter how hard I tried he was just incapable of handling the tools or taking in technical information, and in particular couldn’t even cope with handling a file. I was absolutely appalled that someone who takes other peoples’ money for locksmiths’ training had no skill of hand himself. On the other hand at the same time, an existing locksmith took advantage of the information although already skilled with picking [in this instance] he at least gained some information, and leaped ahead bounds and showed that he profited by the tuition given.
I have to say here that we reflect upon the ability of a student in comparison to a teacher. Which is better? A brilliant student being taught by a mediocre teacher or a brilliant teacher trying to teach a mediocre student. This is always a problem for teachers, and we have to look at the overall success rate of the teaching. I myself have a brilliant grandson who is academically gifted and I dread him ever getting a mediocre teacher, but I do remind myself that a brilliant and keen student will find information to improve their skills on their own back simply because they thirst for information. A student who thinks that he already knows it all, and our schools are full of teenagers who sit slumped in their seats telling teachers that they ‘dun’t neide/wont teechin!’, [heaven help the literacy in this country!!] and who at the end of the day have got cloth-ears when a teacher is trying to get information into their skull! - will never take on more than they themselves will let into their own head. So every teacher will be faced with students who are brilliant and absorb every detail, students who will battle through and do their best to improve, students who already ‘know it all’ and will not take any information in out of pure stubbornness, and students who for one reason or another will never be able to take the information in and put it to use. One failure does not make a bad teacher, otherwise our schools would be in serious trouble and our universities would be empty.
If anyone is wanting to be a locksmith, before they start, they should evaluate their own skill levels, in the areas of metal working, and woodworking, and also can they operate with efficiency, everyday tools, they also require a measure of ‘problem solving’ skills, but most of all, they need a good level of skill of hand. I myself, only take on existing locksmiths who want to improve their skills, and if someone comes in with low levels in these skills it is immediately apparent, I know that I'm going to have a hard time passing on information.
I personally think that some of the Training Courses, may need to reflect upon the terminology of the intent in the titles: ie: Locksmith Course. Surely these are only tasters, for people to get some idea of what locksmithing is all about, yet certificates are handed out stating clearly that they have completed a Locksmith Course, and in some cases they even sit an exam. This 'Certificate of Locksmithing' is totally worthless unless, it is accompanied by 5/6 years of Apprenticeship. And for those men who are leaving the Armed Forces and are looking for new careers thinking that doing these courses qualify them in some way, just because they have handed over their gratuities to the eager awaiting hands which are only after fattening their bank balances, I say, look again because you are being taken advantage of! You have spent years doing your duty for this land and Queen, yet at the end of your Service you are blindly handing over precious money which you have earned. There are courses and schools deliberately set up to take your money, with very clever advertising, your certificate at the end won't open doors, and qualifies you for naught. If the course is aimed in such a way as to suggest that it is an 'awareness course' of some sort, then that is probably more honest. You cannot become a locksmith overnight. Until something better comes along, go the MLA way, at least this will give you some recognition, yes you will have to pay for membership, training sessions etc, but not as much as some of these so-called Training Courses.
For those of you who are going the multi-task way, that is your decision and if an ‘instant’ course helps you to earn your crust, then that is good for you, but remember this old phrase: ‘Jack of all trades and Master of none’. To the other locksmiths I would say work on trying to improve your skills, because when the multi-task squads take the surface work, they will have to turn to locksmiths who have good skills to do the proper locksmithing work. This is likely to be a longer road, but I would imagine that you will still be working in 10 years or more down the road. And remember that locksmithing is going to become more technical, keys are going the clever way, locks will become hi-tech being both mechanical and electronic, so you will need to be better skilled. Just being able to open a door will not be sufficient to financially support a family. So try to look to the future and think about what your needs will be. For instance those people who have NDE skills and are relying on Utilities Warrant work for their main income, are walking on ice, as you may have a job today but that job may be gone tomorrow, then where will you be?
This is a difficult arena, the knock-on effects of Locksmith Training Courses enters into several spheres and the effects of them will be seen in quite a short time. Is it a matter of ‘secure your seat belt and hold on’ or is something going to be done about them? This was one of Pinky’s favorite subjects, but I digress, we were talking about Associations for Locksmiths. Until some official recognition for the associations for locksmiths and registration for locksmiths in this country goes ahead we are really just banging our heads against a brick wall. Again I would say, go the MLA way ‘if you’re in it you can help to change it’.
Good luck to you all
regards Chris B
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Chris B
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by Mark A » 18 Jul 2006 7:06
An ideal solution to this problem would be for an umbrella organisation independant from any existing Association to be set up.
Codes of practice on both working and training requirements could be established with the existing association administering this to their members.
Of course the umbrella organisation would have to have the authority to enforce standards,this would weed out the cowboys and "force" members of different associations to give each other full recognition.
I believe for this to work it would require some government involvement
but I'm not sure that the current government is the one to do this.
My biggest fear is that standards were not enforced properly and it became nothing more than another Quango just raising government revenue.
Mark
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Mark A
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by taylorgdl » 18 Jul 2006 7:07
Talks a lot of sense dosen't he!
But what do you know, Submarine Service through and through.
G.
It's all about the tension . . .
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taylorgdl
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by quicklocks » 18 Jul 2006 8:34
why dont peolpe lissen to someone who has a grasp of twhats going on in the industry
welldone and well said chris b
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quicklocks
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by Dimmy Locks » 18 Jul 2006 9:09
Personally I believe the way to go on the training and competance of locksmiths can only be resolved by introducing a National Certificate (perhaps NVQ modules) for all aspects of the locksmithing trade. And these should be administered by an organisation OUTSIDE of any Trade Organisations.
Personally, I do not have any form of trade certificate. I attended an intensive in house training course with a Nationwide Auto Locksmith company. I received no formal certificate at the end of training but I was lucky enough to get a job with that company, a job that I stayed in for 5 years. Others on the same course where not as fortunate.
I then joined a company as their vehicle specialist, although the bulk of their work was traditional domestic and commercial locksmithing.
I begged for formal training on that aspect of the trade , that went unheeded. So I "tapped up" the other employees of the company as much as I could and practiced at home daily. Eventually I was able to convince the bosses to give me domestic work as well as vehicles.
I remained with that company for over 5 years and was pleased of that persistance as their vehicle work reduced over that period substantially as newer technologies have been introduced to vehicle security. The last year or so I attended far more domestic callouts than I did for vehicles.
So, I would say I am proof that any person willing to put the hours in, can still become a good locksmith even without the benifit of a good Tutor, just as Chris stated.
That said, I know so many so called Master Locksmiths, that have attended loads of courses and seminars set up by some of the Industries Associations that I would not personally call out to open my shed. Their standard of work, the customer relations and general attitude are of such low quality that I cannot possibly understand how any Association could possibly accept them as members, except that membership fees must, IMHO, be a factor.
So to recap my original statement, I believe the industry needs NVQ style courses and certificates adminstered by an Independant Organisation with no links to a Trade Association.
I'm not calling for the end of Associations as they do have their part to play in members maintaining a certain level of quality as per the membership agreements, but as their existance depends on membership fees, they should not have control over qualifications.
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by Wallaby » 18 Jul 2006 15:15
I agree. I'm just glad that good trainers do not blame their paying students if the student goes away unhappy. I even met a trainer last year that gains his training business through a reputation, only to discover that he can only pick the same handful of locks and when presented with some different locks, he struggled badly. He rather embarassingly did this again pubically quite recently lol.
Anyway, I digress too , as so much has been posted on here about associations, and a search will probably show the debates without the need to start again.
Any association which promotes the picking of locks has to be a good one and any forum that does the same has to be good to. I wish some of them were more accessable and I even know of one that does not want its forum members to use 101 - can you believe that ! shame on them lol
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Wallaby
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by pinky » 18 Jul 2006 18:09
associations
I have no doubt that most associations were set up with the best of intentions, some have got greedy and strayed from their initial purpose, some were set up for no more than beer money and to make a fast buck.
The good old MLA, was and may still one day be a good association again, sadly it has had years to influence industry and regulate industry, in this it failed, again more concerned with membership fees etc than securing its and the industries future.
as a new guy i would be asking myself why not all but the majority of top safe engineers, many top locksmiths and most auto locksmiths have either left the MLA or would not join them, why a few years ago did mla members leave in their droves , i believe chris, that you yourself have never been an MLA member nor been MLA trained or sat any MLA exams, is their any reason for your never joining the organisation yourself ?
The MLA need to address this before being considered a real force for the future.
this is not to say they never will claw it all back, and if they changed to be what locksmiths and industry expect, id be 1st to join, if not chris, like you i may as well not join and work to my own high standards and ethics.
For me the MLA must either start to be proactive in industry, or im afraid that they will be no more than the Lion without teeth and claws that they currently are.
I would love to see the day when all associations merge to form just 1 with authority, purpose and the organisation to succeed, and if this day ever comes il be 1st to embrace it.
sadly things have already got to almost an un rescuble point, only intevention of a proactive government body, who have the power and ability to drag all associations in, set regulation of both training and trading, and enforce standards.
though governments as they are , will more than likely set up no more than money generating organisations for local authority.
but we all live in hope.
To training, yes i too agree this should be regulated , promises of i will make you into a locksmith in 48 hours etc should be banned.
i dont understand the point being made of untalented trainees ? trainees come in all levels of ability, a good trainer doesnt just train the naturaly gifted, i know some very good locksmiths who were not gifted, but grafted to learn their skills and are now successfull in their businesses. we cannot condemn someone for a lack of natural talent and ability, after all this is why they seek training.
naturaly gifted guys have an edge, thats obvious to all, but with the excellent tools available these days from the likes of safe ventures, one can buy the same result as the talented guy achieves with his wire picks, it is still an industry open to all honest lock enthusiasts who will graft to master their trade regardless of natural ability, except for some it will take longer , be harder and far more expensive.
everyone should take a number of specialist courses, ie , NDE opening, lock fitting , upvc , frame repair etc etc, but 1 trainee is unlikely to be a specialist in all, and a specialist trainig firm should be sought for each specialist area.
can we even argue for all 2 day courses to be banned ? after all the majority of the locksmiths trading today, started here, most of us included, maybe a ban from training until a standard is met and training qualifications are achieved, and a set sylabus is followed is needed, certainly a ban on the get rich quick merchants.
I wish i had the definitive answer, sadly Locksmiths like human beings do not stick together as 1 voice, instead they group in groups and shout seperately, back bite , change alegences etc etc, and until the day we all shout from the same sheet with 1 voice, then our plight and state isnt heard and little will change.
chris or whom asked about the icl exam
the ICL exam was never devised as far as im aware to be a qualification, but a bench mark standard that each member should have attained to qualify for full membership, much like the unrecognised exams administered by MLA, only recognised within MLA as their benchmark standard for each level, though last time i looked, ICL recognise MLA exams, and a full BLI member qualifies without exam for icl full membership, or so i believe.
any association trading honestly and promoting the best of our industry should be embraced, and welcomed , and if it works for you, then stick with it, if it rips you off then leave, or like chris b and many other established locksmiths, dont bother with any of them, the choice really is yours and what works for the individual.
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pinky
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by Chris B » 19 Jul 2006 8:25
In response to the above post, my response does not include what I actually feel about the MLA it is purely to show some of the advantages of becoming a member for those who don’t know which way to go.
Pinky, Both you and the MLA know full well what status I have or not have had with the MLA, and you know the full reasons why I made any decisions in this respect. This is not the place for you to question me in this way, and I will refrain from answering, mainly because it might be construed that I would be using reverse advertising.
With regard to the MLA, I am neither condoning nor condemning in this post at this time - I am just looking at an advantage of going that way.
There are still many companies out there, who, when instructing a locksmith, insist that the locksmiths are members of the MLA.
This is additional work that locksmiths can pick up if they are entitled to use the MLA logo, or who are on the list of qualified locksmiths.
If anyone searches the MLA website they will find a directory of Locksmiths, [some of which are Members, Master Locksmiths, Affiliate Locksmiths etc] this directory is used by some companies to find a locksmith because they believe that MLA locksmiths are ‘proper’ locksmiths. Whether this is right or wrong is another thing altogether [and a subject which I will not get drawn into on this open forum].
This has nothing to do with the internal politics of any association, but their advertising does have some effect and has been taken notice of by the Police & Insurance & Commercial Companies etc. over the past 15 plus years.
The directory, to my knowledge, does not state anything regarding the quality of a said locksmith, but from what I do know, for those locksmiths who wish to build upon their knowledge via the MLA, the MLA still have graded courses and exams which go some way to build a locksmith’s ability to something close to what we all call a ‘general locksmith’. And in taking a close look at all the various aspects of locksmithing, it could take a long time to go down this route to become a Master Locksmith, although only a matter of weeks to become an MLA member. There is the difference.
If you want to change the internal politics of the MLA, the best way to do that is to be in it and try and have an effect.
For those locksmiths who do not need the MLA status to find work, who don’t require the support offered by the MLA and suchlike, and who can get on without it, that’s fine. Not being a member of an association in this country does not quantify you in any way, although some who have their certificates etc will try to quantify you. You all decide and make your choices for whatever suits you.
The MLA has now been established for a long time, and the general public in this country have become informed about the MLA, most of the other schemes are newer, and not so well known, join any of them and take advantage of which ever suits your needs, but don’t fret about it, don’t worry, it is easy enough to join all/any of them and then move on from there. But try to choose the ones which offer the widest range of subjects and support. Once you are established you probably won’t ‘need’ their support. Nor have the time to take part in them.
If you have joined an association and are not happy about it and ceased to be a member, ‘put it down to experience’, and move on, grumbling forever about it afterwards serves no good. We all gather experiences through life and some are good and some we ‘put down to experience’. If you gather negative baggage, you will fret and worry, your working life as a locksmith has more than enough learning curves to take care of any spare time that you have. If you do have some spare time just paddle your way through the book written by Josiah Parkes Encyclopaedia of Locks + Builders Hardware and you’ll not look back.
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Chris B
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by pinky » 19 Jul 2006 10:09
chris
i was not questioning you on your reasons, nor would i, and i appolgise if it read this way.
The point i tried to make was that many top locksmiths like yourself do not belong to MLA, and nor would many, and you have answered that point .
Many locksmiths left the mla when they decided to allow in the key cutters etc, many left for other reasons.
and i take on the point of being in it to try and make changes.
the point i was making, was that MLA like every association has no powers or authority, and that you are not obliged to join any, if you prefer to go it alone, using chris as an example of what can be achieved without association support and training.
For an apprentice or young person , i would have to agree that the MLA is currently a sensible choice for good all round career training and support, but for those in later life , changing career this route is not always practical, and going it alone may be the only option.
It doesnt make you less of a locksmith because you dont belong to 1 or another association, your own ethics and honesty and desire are what will see you through to becoming what you want to be.
those going it alone often find their way into MLA in later years, and they still welcome you as a new member then.
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by bigfoot » 20 Jul 2006 15:41
Sure, if you can find a BLI/MLA member to support your application, perhaps a throwback to the 1950's & 60's where you can only get into a trade if you had family/connections already in it. Even if you get through the application you have to do an exam to get into the MLA at £235 or so at time, guessing if you fail you would have to pay another £235 for another exam. After passing exam you then find that you still can't use MLA logo on advertising you have to then go for MLA Approved Company for this. Judging from their website this consists of continual assessment visits which you have to pay for. So every time the MLA feel they need some more cash do they just shedule an assessment? which if you fail presumably you would lose MLA Approved Company Status do doubt a costly affair. Why give some stuffy old MLA representative the whip hand over your business most self-employed as so as they wish to avoid domination by bosses or other individuals. Not to mention the £1500 MLA 'General Locksmith' course that is just theory, no practical lock opening or lock fitting. I have no idea why they make a big issue out of not showing lock opening for security reasons since you can get this openly available from many decent pratical Locksmith Trainers/training anyway. There seems little commercial use for trainee's to recoup the £1500 they may spend on this course, surely a cash cow for the MLA. In contrast to what Chris B states I have gone on a 5 day practical locksmith course for less than the MLA one and there are many out there that do. I admit that the certificate you get is a little silly since you could have just knocked one up yourself although surprisingly SKS & Keyprint both asked for a fax of the certicificate to open accounts with them only Tradenet (internet shopping) have never done so.
No offense pinky but surely your earlier argument of everyone gathering under one trade association is self defeating. If loads of people left in the first place due to their fees surely if we were stuck with it with no other alternative they could squeeze us for all its worth with the ordinary member being drowned out by the association upper hierarchy. I agree with Mark A suggestion since everyone seems happier with their own choice of association. As you say Locksmithing is a very diverse area as I am finding out an I am not sure that one association could today meet everyone's needs. So perhaps it is better that there are more than just one I think we just need some relevant goverment control over them & hence their members if all Locksmiths were compelled to join one. Myself I have still not decided but was just wondering why BLKA has a banner ad for The BLA/Era products if they are not linked to the BLKA on their website?
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bigfoot
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by Mark A » 20 Jul 2006 18:29
Bigfoot
The BLKA are a new Association and are not connected with the BLA,although some members,myself included were BLA members.
They are not connected.
Mark
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Mark A
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by acl » 22 Jul 2006 15:05
Blimey sweeping generalisations time again is it?!
At the MLA expo last year Myself,Evo and CJM spent a thoughly enjoyable evening on the friday in Telford we were joined by a youngish looking 40 odd guy called Roger we went from bar to bar and i think on to a club,then back to our hotel i think i left Chris asleep in the bar at 5 evo had already gone.Roger on the other hand was still raring to go and went on till god knows what time.
Oh and guess what Roger is one of those "stuffy old mla inspectors"
Also a top fella and a bloody good locksmith to boot.
Please lets think before making statements like that one.
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acl
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by quickpicker » 17 Nov 2006 18:22
i guess your talking of roger from gemini security.
yes a superb locksmith.
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