European hardware -lever locks, profile cylinders specific for European locks. European lock picks and European locks.
by NeXoz » 8 Aug 2006 12:29
I'm posting this topic because i could not find it any where..
I'm trying to bump a standard 5-pin RUKO cylinder.
It just won't work, I've tryied without the springs, then it works just fine..
My bumpkey is a machined key, by a locksmith  (just got friends with him)
Check list:
Bumpkey = Check.
Tip and soulder
modifyed = Check.
lock without
springs open = Check.
Lock with
springs = NOT CHECK..
I think it is the tool to "bump" the key, that is wrong..
Correct me if i'm wrong..
Nobody is perfect, locks are a "living" proof to that.
So why not just take'em down...
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NeXoz
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by UWSDWF » 8 Aug 2006 12:41
you can use anything to bumb with short of a bowl of jello or possibly water. Apparently there is technique to be practised to get it down pat, I'm sure someone will pop up soon.
I've mostly seen people using screwdrivers so meh...
 DISCLAIMER:repeating anything written in the above post may result in dismemberment,arrest,drug and/or alcohol use,scars,injury,death, and midget obsession.
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by p1ckf1sh » 8 Aug 2006 14:34
As you obviously have taken the lock apart, why don't you try to bump the lock WITH springs but only three pins?
What is the bitting? Is there a lot of high low? This can complicate bumping compared to a flat bitting.
How are you bumping? Are you putting a bit of tension before bumping or are you timing the tensioning to just after the hit?
When you bump the lock WITH springs, do you hear clicks when releasing the tension after the bumps? How many?
Are there security pins in the lock?
One thing to try is bumping once and keeping the tension, then giving another softer tap, this sometimes help with certain bitings containing high pins.
Is your bump key radiused or angled?
Due to financial limitations the light at the end of tunnel has been turned off until further notice.
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by NeXoz » 8 Aug 2006 16:05
p1ckf1sh wrote:As you obviously have taken the lock apart, why don't you try to bump the lock WITH springs but only three pins?
I've tryed with only one pin, with spring.. nothing happends.. p1ckf1sh wrote:What is the bitting? Is there a lot of high low? This can complicate bumping compared to a flat bitting.
Mixed bitting p1ckf1sh wrote:How are you bumping? Are you putting a bit of tension before bumping or are you timing the tensioning to just after the hit?
Timing tension.. p1ckf1sh wrote:When you bump the lock WITH springs, do you hear clicks when releasing the tension after the bumps? How many?
Yes.. 3 clicks.. p1ckf1sh wrote:Are there security pins in the lock?
Tryed it with and without.. p1ckf1sh wrote:One thing to try is bumping once and keeping the tension, then giving another softer tap, this sometimes help with certain bitings containing high pins.
Just tryed it.. still not opening.. BUT now 4 clicks.. p1ckf1sh wrote:Is your bump key radiused or angled?
hmm.. if by radiused you mean 90° cut in the key.. then yes..
and if angled like medeco.. then no..
I'm lost 
Nobody is perfect, locks are a "living" proof to that.
So why not just take'em down...
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NeXoz
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- Location: Denmark
by unbreakable » 8 Aug 2006 16:14
Wow, thats confusing.
Is there any counter milling in the lock (I believe this is what is called).
That would complicate bumping, I think.
Other than that, Im lost too........ 
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unbreakable
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by NeXoz » 8 Aug 2006 17:00
No anti protection of any kind.. just a inner cylinder, an outer cylinder, and some pins and springs..
 Could it be that the lock is just to old..
i mean it's been around since king of spades was jack of clubs..
Could it not be that the lock is not precise enugh to be "bumpt"
I can pick it open in like 5-7 sec..
but i thought that it would be a good lock to start on bumping..
 <-- I'm with stupid
jup.. my self..
Please correct me if i'm wrong.. (not on the stupid thing.. ) 
Nobody is perfect, locks are a "living" proof to that.
So why not just take'em down...
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NeXoz
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- Posts: 29
- Joined: 2 Aug 2006 19:43
- Location: Denmark
by p1ckf1sh » 8 Aug 2006 18:38
Talk about your bump key...
You say it is cut to code, so spacings will be correct.
Did you deepen the cuts a bit? When I asked for radiussed or angled you misintepreted the terms but answered my question nevertheless. Radiused means that some people use a round file to turn the Valleys (which are usually angled at 90°) into rounded valleys. I do not have a picture of that right now, sorry.
How much did you take off the shoulder and tip? Can you maybe post a pic?
Look closely at the key, into the "rear" bank of the valleys. Given a sufficient number of bumps you should see little dents where the bank hits the pins. Are all these dents about equally strong developed? If you see that like 3 are equal and 1 is less and one even almost invisible that is a sign that the spacing is wrong and not all the pins get smacked at the same time. This is unlikely because yours is properly cut as you say but maybe you worked unclean when deepening the cuts.
This is all just guesswork. Have you tried varying the force of the bump through various degrees? I've had locks that I could tap open with just my Zippo lighter held with two fingers, other really required a Hells Angels "in-your-face" smack.
How strong are the springs? Considering you maybe learnt the force to bump from videos made using US locks you should be aware that the springs on european locks are usually stronger and therefore require more force to the bump.
One other thing you could try is trying to rotate the lock into the other direction after bumping, if you have not tried this before.
Regarding the age of your lock - does it feel "chunky" when turning the plug after picking? As you had is taken apart you can just put the parts into Kerosene, Acetone, Isopropanol or just paint thinner to clean it off nicely.
Due to financial limitations the light at the end of tunnel has been turned off until further notice.
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p1ckf1sh
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by unbreakable » 8 Aug 2006 18:47
="p1ckf1sh"This is all just guesswork. Have you tried varying the force of the bump through various degrees? I've had locks that I could tap open with just my Zippo lighter held with two fingers, other really required a Hells Angels "in-your-face" smack.
p1ckf1sh wrote:Did you deepen the cuts a bit? When I asked for radiussed or angled you misintepreted the terms but answered my question nevertheless. Radiused means that some people use a round file to turn the Valleys (which are usually angled at 90°) into rounded valleys. I do not have a picture of that right now, sorry.
Just out of curiosity, should bump keys be angled, or rounded? If they work either way, which way works better? Sorry, I dont have much bumpkey experience.
Thanks,
Unbreakable
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unbreakable
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by Aqua » 8 Aug 2006 19:03
A short elaboration on p1ckf1shs' ideas:
Deepening the cuts:
If there is a pin in the lock which sets on the 9th configuration then (in some locks) a 999 bump-key may not work. It may be effective to make the cuts a little deeper than a 9. This could explain the fact that 4 pins set, and one (the longest one) does not.
Force:
The other thing worth mentioning - the higher the quality of a lock, the easier it is to bump it. If a lock has high tolerances, and pins basically can move freely in every angle (read - low quality locks), it can cause some problems when approached with the bumping technique. The reason being is that when the angles are not exact, the force which should be transferred directly ono the top pin (american standard) will be transferred onto the plug, the hull and everywhere around. More force while hitting the key might solve the problem. I am not saying that it will, but it might.
Cheers,
N.
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by Aqua » 8 Aug 2006 19:19
Sorry for the double post.
There is a great seminar video about bumping somewhere out there. It was made by Barry Wels and Han Fey. It really is worth seeing. The link is somewhere on lp101, but I could not find it for you just now.
Too...tired...
...must...sleep...sleeepp.....arhhhrrrrr...hrr....hrrr
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Aqua
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by p1ckf1sh » 8 Aug 2006 19:35
[quote=unbreakable]Just out of curiosity, should bump keys be angled, or rounded? If they work either way, which way works better? Sorry, I dont have much bumpkey experience. [/quote]
maxxed has gone through this by empirical testing and posted some results in this thread.
Aqua wrote:The other thing worth mentioning - the higher the quality of a lock, the easier it is to bump it. If a lock has high tolerances, and pins basically can move freely in every angle (read - low quality locks), it can cause some problems when approached with the bumping technique. The reason being is that when the angles are not exact, the force which should be transferred directly ono the top pin (american standard) will be transferred onto the plug, the hull and everywhere around. More force while hitting the key might solve the problem. I am not saying that it will, but it might.
That is indeed correct. Another thing to mention about the force is the pinning though. In two locks with equal tolerances (or even in the same lock repinned differently for testing) you can notice a difference. High-low ppinning do require a stronger strike because you will have to separate (=create a shearline) for a longer time. If all the pins are about the same height the required force is lower.
There is one more thing to try, that is hitting the key angled, preferable from below. I am not talking about hitting sideways, as this might break off the bow, but hitting straight but from slightly below. If your key bow is round, think of it as a clockfade. If hit really straight you are hitting 3 o'clock. Try hitting 2 and 4 and 5 o'clock. The further away you move from 3 you should be careful about the force though.
Due to financial limitations the light at the end of tunnel has been turned off until further notice.
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p1ckf1sh
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by NeXoz » 9 Aug 2006 3:22
p1ckf1sh wrote:Talk about your bump key...
You say it is cut to code, so spacings will be correct.
Did you deepen the cuts a bit? When I asked for radiussed or angled you misintepreted the terms but answered my question nevertheless. Radiused means that some people use a round file to turn the Valleys (which are usually angled at 90°) into rounded valleys. I do not have a picture of that right now, sorry.
How much did you take off the shoulder and tip? Can you maybe post a pic?
Look closely at the key, into the "rear" bank of the valleys. Given a sufficient number of bumps you should see little dents where the bank hits the pins. Are all these dents about equally strong developed? If you see that like 3 are equal and 1 is less and one even almost invisible that is a sign that the spacing is wrong and not all the pins get smacked at the same time. This is unlikely because yours is properly cut as you say but maybe you worked unclean when deepening the cuts.
This is all just guesswork. Have you tried varying the force of the bump through various degrees? I've had locks that I could tap open with just my Zippo lighter held with two fingers, other really required a Hells Angels "in-your-face" smack.
How strong are the springs? Considering you maybe learnt the force to bump from videos made using US locks you should be aware that the springs on european locks are usually stronger and therefore require more force to the bump.
One other thing you could try is trying to rotate the lock into the other direction after bumping, if you have not tried this before.
Regarding the age of your lock - does it feel "chunky" when turning the plug after picking? As you had is taken apart you can just put the parts into Kerosene, Acetone, Isopropanol or just paint thinner to clean it off nicely.
I now know what you ment.. (with the angled cut.. ect..)
Yes i did deepen the cuts about 0.04"-0.05", and about 0.25"-0.5" on the tip..
(pic here, sorry for my bad webcam)
The "bump markers" on the key is more visible on the first valley than the
last.. I think the lock's pins is too small, just looked..
Well there is your problem..
The force requried to bump the lock, i think is greater than the tools
i use, can generate. seriously need a tomahawk..
Also tryied to rotate it inwards  (just kidding)
The lock was dirty as h*** when i got it. BUT some WD-40, rubbing alcohol and about an half hour of polishing and lubbing, the lock was back,
to factory produced..
Nobody is perfect, locks are a "living" proof to that.
So why not just take'em down...
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NeXoz
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- Location: Denmark
by dejan54 » 14 Aug 2006 3:32
the bump key presentation is on that link:http://connect.waag.org/toool/
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by NeXoz » 17 Aug 2006 4:39
Thanks to you all for the nice responses..
My bumping problem was that I used a lock
that was to old.. (to high tolerance)
Gonna purchase a new lock and then try it..
I'll let you know how it goes..
Nobody is perfect, locks are a "living" proof to that.
So why not just take'em down...
-
NeXoz
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- Posts: 29
- Joined: 2 Aug 2006 19:43
- Location: Denmark
by Shrub » 17 Aug 2006 10:02
Lock age does not matter,
I have recently got a Ruko lock and although i didnt notice i didnt look but ive been told it does have counter bores, this is to stop bumping,
None of your pics work for me so i cant comment on your lock,
I will strip mine down again to check if its true,
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