Picking prevention idea...

[RenderMan]

At Defcon, L0st ran a competition called the 'mystery box' where teams were handed a metal box with 2 padlocks and a built in wafer lock. The goal was to get into the box and interact with a microcontroller inside to extract information from another microcontroller circut to finish the puzzle. Freaking great contest.

In L0sts genius work on the boxes (Brinks key lockers BTW) he put very large neodymium magnets on the back of the lids, right behind the locks. Anyone trying to pick the locks with ferrous (iron/steel) picks found it very difficult to do so since thier picks were constantly being tugged to the magnets. (he also left the wafer locks unlocked so people attempting to pick them wound up locking them!)

This got me thinking; inserting a strong magnet beside the lock cylinder in the mounting hardware (deadbolt, knob, whatever) could really be a cheap and easy way to impede picking. Since the pins and the cylinder are brass, they would not be affected, and if care was taken, other vital lock components could be made out of non-ferrous metals to avoid problems.

Keys could similarly be made from non-ferrous metals or the magnet could be placed in such a way as not to really impede the normal operation of a key.

Am I nuts or did L0st come up with something that seems like a decent way to impede tools (until someone comes up with non-ferrous tools anyways)?

[globallockytoo]

But my brass picks or nylon/derlin picks would not be affected....and the cost for tooling up to make magnetism a viable option would make cylinders too expensive for the masses.....i like your thinking tho.

[Cherokee]

A nice idea however two things, firstly I am not sure the about the power of non electo magnet ie. would it be strong enough to be of influence through the entire assembly of the lock setup.
Would people accept an elcro magnet which would exert enough magnetic force plugged permently into their mains electrical socket, which they may find a bit annoying when household Ferrous items are brought close to the inside of the door

Secondly, a lot of picks are made of stainless steel which is non magnetic

Just my first thoughts

Regards to all,
Brian

[Shrub]

Am I nuts or did L0st come up with something that seems like a decent way to impede tools (until someone comes up with non-ferrous tools anyways)?

Either way i think this LOst is a cleaver bloke, great ideas, i would love to enter such competions,

[Kaotik]

A nice idea however two things, firstly I am not sure the about the power of non electo magnet ie. would it be strong enough to be of influence through the entire assembly of the lock setup.
Would people accept an elcro magnet which would exert enough magnetic force plugged permently into their mains electrical socket, which they may find a bit annoying when household Ferrous items are brought close to the inside of the door

Secondly, a lot of picks are made of stainless steel which is non magnetic

Just my first thoughts

Regards to all,
Brian

I respectfully disagree. I however don't know what grade of stainless steel that is used or produces in the UK, but here in the states every piece of stainless is attracted to magnets, including the stainless that are made for lockpicks, stainless grade knives, stainless tension wrenches, the stainless mag wheels on my car to government grade stainless steels. The only way I would think that stainless steel would not be magnetic would be that it was stampes as such, but not really stainless steel at all. For instance, I have a second generation Highlander Sword stanped stainless steel bought from a flee market, and it is not magnetic, hence false advertisment on inferior products.

On another note: I would agree that it would take a powerfull or electro magnet to create such a pull on the insides of the lock because of all the other non-ferrous metals involved such as the pot metal cylinder housings, brass cylinders, brass pins, the door itself metal or wood ect.. The magnetic field has to transfer through all these obstructions to reach the tool being used, and by the time this field reaches the tool it would not hender much if it wasn't powerful.

It may throw a picker off for a moment, but if you think about it, even IF the tool/pick were stuck to the side of the cylinder magnetically, one could still feel the feedback from the pins because the cylinder is under tension, and therefore would still be able to lift and feel the pins reaction from picking.

I would also agree that such a magnet would attract to many things outside the entire assembly itself. Keyrings, pagers, cell phones, make-up cases, ink pens everyday objects carryied by the common person would be subject to this field. However, if it is on a small metal lock box, I could see this working, but not on a home or business.

Just a thought or two.

[Shrub]

It is true that 'stainless' can be very impure nowadays and you need to pay a lot to get a good quality grade but it will still be magnetic to some degree,

A good show of this is that copper coins can also be picked up with magnets as pure metals are simply getting far too expensive,

[Cherokee]

Not wishing to get flamed off the forum, and it has been 25 years since I did material science at college, however one of the propieties of all Austintic stainless steels (and there are many) is that it is they are totally non magnetic.

To be absolutely sure I would have to dig out my college notes, and would not even know where to start looking for them

whether locks picks are made of Austinitic or Pearlitic stainless steels (which is magnetic) I do not know.

All a bit off the subject really, but heh all adds to the thread.

Nice to see someone trying to bring a totally fresh way of thinking towards lock design.

Regards to all,
Brian

[Kaotik]

I agree, Austenitic metals are non-magnetic and less brittle at low tempratures. But it is only when Nickel is added and an austenite structure is stabilized, this crystalization makes it non-magnetic, but this type of grade of stainless is not used for the tools used today.

The stainless we use for hand tools and cutlery is when Carbon is added and then heat treated properly. No offence or flamming, but this isn't science class and no need to be specific or technical.

[quote]Secondly, alot of picks are made of stainless steel which is non-magnetic[qoute/]

You didn't technically be specific on which type of stainless. Austenitic, Ferritic or Martensitic, so I beieve you left it open for argument. It is a good discussion for the thread though.

[Cherokee]

No offence taken, as I said it been a very long time since I was at college.

I agree we are getting a bit hooked up on the science.

Possible benefits of a strong magnet by the door - you should be allways able to find your keys/glasses.


Regards to all,
Brian

[Kaotik]

Isn't that the truth.

[LockNewbie21]

To avoid it, I fiberglass your handle

[unbreakable]

Or just use one of quickpicks new green picks (made of PCB board)
Thatd work, right? I sure thinks so.

[Shrub]

It would still stick to a powerful magnet though,

I think the issue is burgulars dont pick locks, maybe they are using bumpkeys or starting to but as for picking them? i doubt its worth the extra tooling costs as said also theres still millions of locks out there already fitted,

[LockNewbie21]

A thief will break your window out of rage becuase his belt buckle stuck to your deadbolt.

But by that time the owner has his 357 or buck shot cocked...

Plus most people leave there keys undermats anyway, even if they show it a hundred times on it takes a thief

[Schuyler]

A thief will break your window out of rage becuase his belt buckle stuck to your deadbolt.

But by that time the owner has his 357 or buck shot cocked...

Plus most people leave there keys undermats anyway, even if they show it a hundred times on it takes a thief

I just want this to be the birth of a stereotype of theives wearing huge belt buckles. I hope it's in movies by 2008. I'll say "I know where that came from! The internet!"