Interesting locks

[raimundo]

the second one is called the 'scorpion' i dont speak russian, I just got that from the package design. the twisted key could be mimiced by a few sweeper bristles and a couple of pliers, maybe a split tensor. the translated literature on the twisty key seems to promise only a hundred combos, and this would seem manipulable particularily in light of what I was doing with an abloy yesterday, I had an abloy classic with a key that was not the key for the lock but it had a lot of #6 and7 cuts on it so when I turned the key and then turned back less than the full 90 I was dropping off discs and eventually the abloy key opened the lock, makes me think of making a type of abloy pick much like a key but with mobile parts on the keyshaft that would respond to friction and resistance so that some back and forth stuff would eventualy cause it to set to the opening, then the only problem woud be to realign it for removal, but I have some ideas how that could be done also.

[Shrub]

But thats for the advanced sections isnt it ray

[p1ckf1sh]

the translated literature on the twisty key seems to promise only a hundred combos, and this would seem manipulable

Yeah, i stumbled on that one as well, and I think it is wrong in some way. It say "100 min. combinations" or something close to that, so I think it is a problem with translation, maybe the abbreviation for "million" in Russian is "min." or something like that. It just does not make sense any other way. Not even the former east block engineers would consider a lock with merely 100 combination heroic enough to boast about it so loudly. Also, considering there are 20 discs, it just seems wrong. 20 discs with only two different positions/settings already give 400 combinations.

Something is foul there. I wish I had one of those. Maybe I should start a business selling specialty locks from around the world to the locksport community.

[p1ckf1sh]

Hey, I thought I'd seen a twisted key lock before and I have. It's in an old German patent by Furhmann from 1879. I don't think it's quite the same mechanism as the Russian one though.

Do you have some additional information on that lock, patent or something? Is that really Furhmann or maybe Fuhrmann?

[greyman]

p1ckf1sh, I think you're right about the spelling. It's Fuhrmann. The patent in question in German patent number 7228. It's not a sidebar lock but it does have a twisted key. I think there may have been other German patent locks with twisted keys, but this is the only one I can get specific info on.

By the way, with 20 discs, you could very easily have 100 million combos. Even if each disc only has 1 of 2 positions, you get 2 to the power of 20. But I think there's more to the Russian lock than that. It would have a very low "MACS". I don't think you could get that many useable differs out of it.

[n2oah]

I'd pull or snap the disk lock cylinder. It doesn't appear to have protection for pulling or snapping.

[p1ckf1sh]

p1ckf1sh, I think you're right about the spelling. It's Fuhrmann. The patent in question in German patent number 7228. It's not a sidebar lock but it does have a twisted key. I think there may have been other German patent locks with twisted keys, but this is the only one I can get specific info on.

Thanks for the number, I actually found it. I would not have been able without the number though. The patent database was not listing the name or a Description in the database fields. Still, it's amazing the records reach THAT far back. Kaiserliches Patentamt. w00t. History.

By the way, with 20 discs, you could very easily have 100 million combos. Even if each disc only has 1 of 2 positions, you get 2 to the power of 20.

Well, tnat was was I basically trying to say. But I came to a different conclusion regarding the math approach. I am a idiot when it comes to math, so excuse the mistake I made when mixing up multiplier and power.

But I think there's more to the Russian lock than that. It would have a very low "MACS". I don't think you could get that many useable differs out of it.

Well, I am not too sure about this. Maybe what you see there is a exmaple key, oversimplified or something. Maybe the twist is not required to be symmetrical over the entire length, meaning you can have variants that have twist with more rotations in the back and a less rotated one in the front or something like that. But all that is speculation.

[raimundo]

there is an old card file system for crossreferencing called the McBee card system, the cards come with printed numbers on the edges, and a punch that centers holes over the numbers, or punches a cut to the edge of the card, so that when a metal rod is inserted in a certain file (file as in rank and file,) it will either pass through a hole and lift up the card or pass a cut to the edge that will not lift the file. (maybe the jacquard loom was the first iteration of this idea) and while considering the 20 discs in the twistykey lock, it came to me that something like this could be a design element in a lock, perhaps combining a sidebar falling into the cut-to-edge and some sort of opening principle that requires a pass through aligned holes. its all a vague idea right now, but Im sure its a good concept, in fact, perhaps is points to a mechanical thought process link between the abloy disc and sidebar and the jaqueard loom.

[n2oah]

Maybe it's a warded lock.

[mh]

It's Fuhrmann. The patent in question in German patent number 7228. It's not a sidebar lock but it does have a twisted key. I think there may have been other German patent locks with twisted keys, but this is the only one I can get specific info on.

From what I read from you in all these threads, your book must be very interesting! I hope you can publish it soon (and that I can afford it )
Cheers,
mh

[greyman]

From what I read from you in all these threads, your book must be very interesting! I hope you can publish it soon (and that I can afford it )
Cheers,
mh

mh - I think you would find it interesting. As for publishing, I am keeping my fingers crossed. I have a possible publishing avenue but the submission/review process is quite slow, so I must wait and see what comes from it. I am not sure what the eventual price for the book would be - that would be up to the publisher's marketing team. Printing and distribution costs are expensive though. I will put a post into LP101 if I do manage to line up a contract (and crack a bottle of champagne too

[raimundo]

self publishing is also an option, much more likely in the digital age. and the marketing is what publishers do that authors aren't likely to do, but here you could sell the book on the forum in the bst thread, if ya give me a free copy to review, I'll be your quote and write a blurb using the the words fascinating, seminal work, incandescent, must read, etc

[atrix]

hi all :D
i found only this information about this 2 locks

http://classholding.ru/modules/tinygall ... tegoryid=9
http://classholding.ru/modules/contente ... .php?id=20

[greyman]

Atrix - thanks for the info. Since I don't understand Russian, I wonder if you could find a shop on-line that is selling the Class 20-disc lock with the twist key? I would be interested in buying one.

[atrix]

hi all
new foto