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Unpickable Schlage?!

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Unpickable Schlage?!

Postby venomshockx » 7 Sep 2006 5:17

hi guys,

i'm rusty in the practice of lockpicking, i bought my first southord 14 pc set 3 years ago, and was able to successfully pick low-security masterlock and kwisket locks (and some schlage deadbolts) back then.

recently, i had some friends who were locked out of their place. they called me up, and i offered to help.

they lived in a nice apt complex, and their door had a schlage cyclinder inside the round doorknob.

After hours of trying, i was unable to pick the lock -- infact, i barely found the first binding pin...

they ended up calling a locksmith, which was more or less a blow to my pride, and the locksmith himself wasn't able to pick it (he used similar tools to mine, and also had a pick snap-gun, which also failed.) i dont know what his credentials were, but he was a locksmith; not sure how many years of experience he had under his belt, as he was sort of young in his 30s maybe?

he ended up drilling the core out, using a DeWalt powerdrill, and had to rekey the doorkob. he claimed it was a schlage pick-resistant lock, which was difficult to pick.

i know that lock companies always paste on fancy terms like "pick resistant, etc", but this one seemed a bit odd to me.

anyone have any similar experiences? i unfortunately don't know the schlage model name or number. when i tried to pick it, it felt sort of difficult cuz the doorknob seemed loose at the same time, which wasn't what i was used to (usually the only moving part would be my tension tool+the cyclinder, if i were successful).
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Postby globallockytoo » 7 Sep 2006 5:21

often it might be required to lubricate the cylinder before picking
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Postby venomshockx » 7 Sep 2006 5:29

i thought i felt the springs responding pretty well, it wasn't screeching or anything of that sort...

i was just curious if the doorhandle had to be turned with the tension wrench as well....

i tried feeler picks and half-diamonds, and even resorted to raking...but to no avail.

my question is: why couldn't the locksmith pick it? he basically used the same tools that i did, in addition to a rake/snap-gun.

would an electric pick have made a difference (althought that woulda jacked up the pins pretty badly)? cuz the service fee with a core replacement/rekeying cost a hefty load....

are there schlage's out there that are notoriously difficult or on the verge of impossible to pick? this was a residential lock, not some industrial/high security looking lock...
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Postby venomshockx » 7 Sep 2006 5:32

i believe it was this model, with a keyed-entrance lock:

http://consumer.schlage.com/products/Pr ... finishID=3
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Postby globallockytoo » 7 Sep 2006 5:37

a good locksmith, when encountering a difficult cylinder will usually lubricate the cylinder with graohite.....did this guy?

Before drilling i would have impressioned it first....it's been a very long time since i've drilled a lock
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Postby globallockytoo » 7 Sep 2006 5:39

graphite
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primuseverest

Postby raimundo » 7 Sep 2006 7:39

there are a coupla schlages that have a second trick to them did it say primus on the cylinder face? or did it have a little mark sorta like ^ on the face of the lock, that would not be unusual in an apartment complex.
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Postby darrel.h » 7 Sep 2006 7:46

You probably bumped into some spool drivers or pins. Also you may not be using enough tension, therefore you can't get the pins to bind.
If all fails, use nitroglycerine.
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Postby keysman » 7 Sep 2006 13:19

venomshockx wrote:my question is: why couldn't the locksmith pick it? he basically used the same tools that I did, in addition to a rake/snap-gun....


Who is to say ? .. maybe you messed up the lock with your "hour" of picking.
Maybe the locksmith was having a bad day....maybe he is just not a great lock picker.
My guess he is not a great picker as he didn't lube the lock.. probably the first thing I would have done ( evil WD40 to the rescue!).

Drill?.. while not the first choice, it is an acceptable method when other options have been exausted, after all you did want the door opened ..TODAY. Didn't you?



venomshockx wrote:are there schlage's out there that are notoriously difficult or on the verge of impossible to pick? this was a residential lock, not some industrial/high security looking lock...



The newer model schlage "F" ( residential grade lock) has several security top pins and is 'supposed " to be more resistant to picking.

Additionally ,if I remember correctly the plug only turns 1 direction... making it bit more of a PIA to pick
Everyone who eats potatoes eventually dies. Therefore potatoes are poisonous.
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Postby venomshockx » 7 Sep 2006 14:21

from what i was told, the lock turns in both directions...

he didnt use any lube or graphite

primus sounds familiar, .... if it were a primus, would it require different tools?

drilling was a painful choice, but my friends needed to get into the apt.

by the way, how much is a typical charge for these services?
locksmiths around the area charge between 55-100 dolllars on service alone (that's WITHOUT guarantees of opening the lock, that could mean just looking the lock)...this was after hours by the way (a 24 hour emergency locksmith)
this locksmith claimed a 99% success rate/guarantee, but failed in the end..
others claimed they have a 100% guarantee, which is hard to believe, considering the difficulty of some modern locks out there (eg medeco).

how much is a typical cyclinder rebuild/rekeying?
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Postby keysman » 7 Sep 2006 14:59

venomshockx wrote:from what i was told, the lock turns in both directions...


Rule # 1 NEVER believe the customer.. my experience is : MALES NEVER know correctly which way the key turns , females are right about 50 % of the time.

venomshockx wrote:primus sounds familiar, .... if it were a primus, would it require different tools?...


If it was Primus it would have said PRIMUS on the face of the lock, then it would have required different tools , tecknique, and skills.. (about all that can be said in the public area ) Unless it was a very high end apt it is unlikley ( although not impossible) that it was a primus.

venomshockx wrote:
this locksmith claimed a 99% success rate/guarantee, but failed in the end..
others claimed they have a 100% guarantee, which is hard to believe, considering the difficulty of some modern locks out there (eg medeco).




100% guarantee and 100% success rate are 2 different animals..I am sure there is some ‘fine print" that excludes anything they want it to, including locks that have been tampered with (i.e. your "hour of picking") or vandalism
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Postby darrel.h » 7 Sep 2006 15:55

Wait a second, if your friend lived in an apartment, couldn't you just ask the superintendant for the spare or master key? Second, the lock probably was a primus because they only install higher security locks on apartments.
If all fails, use nitroglycerine.
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Postby lockedin » 7 Sep 2006 16:31

darrel.h wrote:Wait a second, if your friend lived in an apartment, couldn't you just ask the superintendant for the spare or master key? Second, the lock probably was a primus because they only install higher security locks on apartments.

Yeah. I thought that in most aparment complexes you're required to give the key to the manager for the reason they give of "emergencies." They flat out told me if I didn't give the new key after changing the locks I would be charged for a busted down door in case something happened.
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Postby darrel.h » 7 Sep 2006 19:06

lockedin wrote:Yeah. I thought that in most aparment complexes you're required to give the key to the manager for the reason they give of "emergencies." They flat out told me if I didn't give the new key after changing the locks I would be charged for a busted down door in case something happened.
I don't think the manager would let you install your own locks. They install a default lock with key control to prevent you from making duplicates for friends and family.
If all fails, use nitroglycerine.
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Postby lockedin » 7 Sep 2006 20:39

darrel.h wrote:I don't think the manager would let you install your own locks. They install a default lock with key control to prevent you from making duplicates for friends and family.

Yes, it sounds like that may be the case for the apartment complex in this thread, but for most non-upscale apartment complexes (especially in a college town like mine) 95% of the keys I have seen are easily copyable kw1 and sc1. There was no central control in my apartment complex, and because of this many of the tenants were allowed to install whatever lock they wanted when they moved in as long as they gave a copy of the key to management.
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