Is there an unpickable pin-tumbler lock, really?

by **ericm115** » 8 Sep 2006 22:08

Here's what I don't understand... tolerances are tolerances in manufacturing. They just want some percentage of their product's to fall within some measured range. The thing is, that range is almost certainly a Poisson (or other) distribution... There should be lots of their product falling near the exact, perfect specs.

Statistically, just as there will be an occasional outlier that doesn't fit the specified tolerance, there should be an occasional lock with at least two pins that are spaced exactly perfectly (to the micron) so that setting either of the two pins one-at-a time is impossible. You would have to set them two at a time.

Now, you could say that with a cheaper lock perhaps there exists a few microns of strain on a torqued inner plug that would cause the lip to just barely catch under one of the two "perfectly aligned" pins after it goes above the shearline... but with better made pin-tumblers, perhaps this could be impossible without so much torque that the pins won't rise without breaking your pick anyways.

Does this make sense? I have wondered about this several times before....

em

by **Bud Wiser** » 9 Sep 2006 2:50

the way I understand it is if the locks were perfect in fit, they would not work. They need to be loose enough to move the movable parts. So then comes the question of what the tolorances is and from what point. If it's +/- .10 then any thing over that would either be too loose or too tight.

A good question would be when going in the direction of tighter tolorances at what point would the lock begin to be unable to operate.

by **devildog** » 9 Sep 2006 2:57

Check sig.

by **devildog** » 9 Sep 2006 2:59

Oh, and don't forget you're only asking about picking. What you're saying wouldn't apply for a pickgun, bumpkey, or some other form of bypass.

by **Omikron** » 9 Sep 2006 3:02

Perfect tolerances? Maybe. Perfect metal? Never.

Even if your tolerances are all within .0001, the metal itself WILL warp just a bit, so picking will always be possible, even if it is extremely difficult.

by **Shrub** » 9 Sep 2006 4:37

Electronics is the way to go for the more difficult locks to open but as said how many will pick the lock and how many will kick the door in,

If you can make them bump proof its the best your going to get i think,

by **eric343** » 9 Sep 2006 5:15

I know of no plain-vanilla pin-tumbler lock that is unpickable. I know of one that has only been picked on the order of two or three times (ever) -- the 6-pin Lips SKG 2-star, known for its rather insane tolerances and exceedingly nasty security pins.

There are at least two key locks for which no surreptitious opening technique (that I know of) exists -- the Evva MCS and the Rosengrens RKL-10. The former is a door lock and tha latter a safe lock. The former uses rotating magnetic discs and the latter a sort of odd gear drive pseudo-Abloy mechanism.

by **Shrub** » 9 Sep 2006 5:18

Doesnt lss have a video of the rkl being picked? perhaps im getting mixed up,

by **Bud Wiser** » 9 Sep 2006 10:21

eric343 wrote:I know of no plain-vanilla pin-tumbler lock that is unpickable. I know of one that has only been picked on the order of two or three times (ever) -- the 6-pin Lips SKG 2-star, known for its rather insane tolerances and exceedingly nasty security pins.

There are at least two key locks for which no surreptitious opening technique (that I know of) exists -- the Evva MCS and the Rosengrens RKL-10. The former is a door lock and tha latter a safe lock. The former uses rotating magnetic discs and the latter a sort of odd gear drive pseudo-Abloy mechanism.

I thought I read some where where there was a defeat for the magnetic discs, or am I having another senior citizen moment :shock:

by **ericm115** » 9 Sep 2006 11:34

The question wasn't if there is a perfectly secure pin tumbler out there - surely things can be bypassed. The question wasn't even if there is a brand of lock that is unpickable. The question was more of.... could it be that at some point in the history of BEST company or similar... if their machines somehow created a lock with two identical diameter pins and a perfectly shaped lip at the shearline where those two pins are where there would be absolutely no way to lift one to the shearline at a time - they would absolutely have to be lifted at the same time.

I think I'm going to stick with Omikron's answer. The metal warping...

In any case, I was thinking... even if two pins bind perfectly.. they bind because there is friction between the driver pin and the lip of the plug... So as you press up the key pin, the driver pin slides up... and if you let off the key pin, it will fall down like the pin is set because the driver pin is caught at the lip... But if you keep slowly pushing up the key pin and letting off until the key pin doesn't come back down, you can figure out the correct height of the pin... From there, you could let the pin back down, press it up to almost the right height, then go to the other "perfect pin" you are fighting and do the same thing... It may take a little time, but even if two pins bind "perfectly" and the lip of the plug at the shearline is "perfectly shaped" and has zero warping under the torque of the tensioner... it is still possible.

Has anyone ever had to pick a lock like this? Does this even make sense?

em

by **Octillion** » 9 Sep 2006 12:36

In the event that two pins are very close to one another like this, both pins will bind due to elastic deformation of the metal, and you have the choice to bind either one first, it's not like you have to pick both at the same time. I have a few locks with pins that bind like this, where the order you pick certain pins doesn't matter.

by **n2oah** » 9 Sep 2006 12:58

Shrub wrote:Doesnt lss have a video of the rkl being picked? perhaps im getting mixed up,

No, but that one guy from the UK, I think his name is chris b, makes an RKL-10 pick.

by **n2oah** » 9 Sep 2006 12:59

That reminds me, I have been trying to get my hands on an RKL-10,but I can't ever find them...

by **eric343** » 10 Sep 2006 4:27

n2oah wrote:
Shrub wrote:Doesnt lss have a video of the rkl being picked? perhaps im getting mixed up,

No, but that one guy from the UK, I think his name is chris b, makes an RKL-10 pick.

I'm not sure if Chris Belcher's tool will surreptiously open an RKL-10. I think the 'tool' is related to the maintenance of the lock.

I haven't heard of any defeat for the MCS.

by **greyman** » 11 Sep 2006 8:33

Eric343, the RKL10 and EVVA MCS are not pin tumbler locks, wasn't the original post about could a pin tumbler lock be picked if it had "perfect tolerances"? But since we've got onto the subject of unpickable or undecodable locks in general, I'd like to put in my two bob. Has anyone ever developed a decoder/pick for the Kromer BP55K lock?

For a picture: http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=14993

Is there an unpickable pin-tumbler lock, really?

Is there an unpickable pin-tumbler lock, really?

unpickable locks

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