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by zeke79 » 4 Sep 2006 11:47
To be honest, I have not messed with stronger springs. I think the idea of going with standard and weaker springs is asking for reliability problems. After bumping for a bit, the weaker springs would end up being trashed.
Going with extra strong springs will just result in difficulty inserting and removing the keys especially with keys cut at or close to MACS. Add to that the added wear on bottom pins and keys due to the extra spring force and it would not be worth the benifits.
Just my opinion.
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by Schuyler » 4 Sep 2006 12:11
Your opinion happens to carries some weight with me 
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by zeke79 » 4 Sep 2006 13:21
Ok, here is my idea on a telescoping pin. The proto is very crude since I done it by hand with a dremel but you get the idea.
The two pieces:
Assembled:
Concept:
The idea behind this that the serrated outer shell will be placed on top of the bottom pins with the inner pin interfacing with the spring on top of the serrated pin. With correct timing of bumping, the outer serrated sleeve will simply bounce up quickly and deflect off of the spring loaded inner pin top. The inner pin will have a slowed response compared to the non sprung outer serrated pin. The serrated outer pin will also have an impact on improper technique as if one tensions the lock improperly, the outer serrated sleeve will be locked in place by the plug.
Hope that description makes some sense. I am going to do some testing of this pin this afternoon.
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by Schuyler » 4 Sep 2006 13:40
Very interesting, I look forward to the results.
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by zeke79 » 4 Sep 2006 16:27
Results so far are that I have not bumped this lock after 150 attempts with this pin installed. I still have a few more tests in mind that I am going to do with this pin but so far things look pretty good.
On a sidenote, the pin does not act exactly as I had imagined in my concept. As the pin is inside the lock I can only take an educated guess as to what is happening but if I can confirm what I now think is going on, I really like it.
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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by digital_blue » 4 Sep 2006 16:59
Zeke: I'm really surprised that you got different results. I've tried a total of 3 Schlage cyls thus far (I know, not exhaustive, but a reasonable test) and in every case I have not been able to bump open any of them even once with a lone 8 or 9 pin. I will continue to test, however.
Schuyler: We actually did do a test of varying spring tensions as well during our meet, as one of my guys brought that up as a possible solution, and I've been meaning to test that for a while anyway. I went so far as to find the toughest spring I had, and stretch it a bit to make it even tougher. Even going this far, there was absolutely no noticeable difference in the difficulty of bumping, so we shelved that idea. My thoughts on the matter are that the force of the spring is negligible relative to the force of the strike, so it doesn't seem to have any impact at all.
Zeke again: Would you mind testing something for me? Next time you bump open a lock with a lone 9 pin, could you pull the plug while it's still turned and determine if that pin is in the plug or the bible? One of the concerns I've had is that it seems possible that the lone pin could clear the shear line entirely, though in practice I've not been able to make this happen, even with excessively forceful strikes.
Also, can you tell me a bit about your bumping technique. Are you applying constant tension to the key and striking? Or are you timing your turning with the striking? Not sure if that would make any difference at all, but it might.
db

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by zeke79 » 4 Sep 2006 17:18
digital_blue wrote:Zeke: I'm really surprised that you got different results. I've tried a total of 3 Schlage cyls thus far (I know, not exhaustive, but a reasonable test) and in every case I have not been able to bump open any of them even once with a lone 8 or 9 pin. I will continue to test, however.
Schuyler: We actually did do a test of varying spring tensions as well during our meet, as one of my guys brought that up as a possible solution, and I've been meaning to test that for a while anyway. I went so far as to find the toughest spring I had, and stretch it a bit to make it even tougher. Even going this far, there was absolutely no noticeable difference in the difficulty of bumping, so we shelved that idea. My thoughts on the matter are that the force of the spring is negligible relative to the force of the strike, so it doesn't seem to have any impact at all.
Zeke again: Would you mind testing something for me? Next time you bump open a lock with a lone 9 pin, could you pull the plug while it's still turned and determine if that pin is in the plug or the bible? One of the concerns I've had is that it seems possible that the lone pin could clear the shear line entirely, though in practice I've not been able to make this happen, even with excessively forceful strikes.
Also, can you tell me a bit about your bumping technique. Are you applying constant tension to the key and striking? Or are you timing your turning with the striking? Not sure if that would make any difference at all, but it might.
db
db,
First question I have for you is are your holding standard kik cylinders in your hand to do this testing? I have used a heavy padlock body held in my hand so far and it seems to make a difference over just holding the cylinder.
As far as the lone 9 pin goes, I have pulled it out of the bible once and out of the plug 4 times after bumping. As far as technique goes I use 2 primary methods. First is slight tension all of the time. If I do not see results with that method then I use the timed tension method to bump the lock open.
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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by digital_blue » 4 Sep 2006 17:49
All three locks have been standard deadbolt cyls. I typically use a constant light tension technique, as using a timed method wouldn't make for a very good test, since my results are sketchy with that technique at the best of times.
So.. what's drivin' me crazy now is, how in the **** is that 9 pin getting back down into the plug? I can see the possibility of it ending up in the bible, and there'd be a pretty simple approach to dealing with that, but I can't see how that pin can go up into the bible and come back down (without the help of a spring) in the same amount of time that it takes for the gap to open on the rest of the pins. For that to happen, the key pin would have to be traveling at about twice the speed of the rest of the pins.  I just don't get it.
db
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by zeke79 » 4 Sep 2006 17:52
My only idea is that it is not going all the way up. It is either barely moving up or not moving up at all past shear line. The one that ended up in the bible could have easily been by own stupidity handling the lock while bumping with the kids coming in and out.
I can retest if you like.
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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by zeke79 » 4 Sep 2006 18:02
zeke79 wrote:Ok, here is my idea on a telescoping pin. The proto is very crude since I done it by hand with a dremel but you get the idea. The two pieces:  Assembled:  Concept: The idea behind this that the serrated outer shell will be placed on top of the bottom pins with the inner pin interfacing with the spring on top of the serrated pin. With correct timing of bumping, the outer serrated sleeve will simply bounce up quickly and deflect off of the spring loaded inner pin top. The inner pin will have a slowed response compared to the non sprung outer serrated pin. The serrated outer pin will also have an impact on improper technique as if one tensions the lock improperly, the outer serrated sleeve will be locked in place by the plug. Hope that description makes some sense. I am going to do some testing of this pin this afternoon.
First problem with this design has been found......... Construction key holes  .
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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by cbuk2k » 5 Sep 2006 17:26
What about a standard spool pin and wrapping a wadding or rubber washer around it so it acts like a damper. Make it difficult for the air to escape and it won’t jump away from the force driving it.
Beware – This post may well include hair brain schemes. Anyone choosing to follow these does so at there own risk. All im saying is don’t blame me if you go and end the world.
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by Omikron » 5 Sep 2006 19:07
cbuk2k wrote:What about a standard spool pin and wrapping a wadding or rubber washer around it so it acts like a damper. Make it difficult for the air to escape and it won’t jump away from the force driving it.
You don't want anything rubber or any wadding in the cylinder because it will break down over time and jam up the lock. Also, this would mean that much stronger return springs would be required for proper operation.
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by TheonlyQ » 5 Sep 2006 19:30
EricM wrote:you could always add a ball bearing to any of the tops of the pin stacks and that nullifies the attack. plain and simple. that doesn't interfere really with anything as long as it's small enough.
This got binned as an idea but if you used a lighter weight material for the pin and more dense for the ball bearing would that not throw out the effect?
Just a thought.
Q
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by Bud Wiser » 18 Sep 2006 0:09
Ok, here's an idea tell me what you think.
Why not use different materials for the pins? Lead, magnesium, copper, and aluminum, or any thing different that would not conflict with the locks normal operation. There by causing the pins to clear the sheer line at different intervals of time, because they all get the same kinetic energy imparted and thusly complete their travel at different rates.
This way it would preserve the integrity of the lock, present no additional wears to the lock, and hopefully defeat bumping at minimum cost and effort.
Would this fly?
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by Romstar » 18 Sep 2006 1:14
What you are looking for is a pin-in-cup driver.
This is a two piece security pin design that was originally intended to frustrate pick guns.
If you have ever seen the kids pin-in-cup game you will know what I mean.
The "pin" part sits on the bottom with its flat against the key pin. The "cup" part sits on top of the pin with its flat against the spring.
When you try to bump this pin it goes cockeyed between the cylinder and bible and jams it all up.
I have no idea why nobody bothered trying this design already.
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