Can you pin locks so bumping doesn't work?

by **Biff** » 21 Sep 2006 22:25

Okay,
Sorry for yet another post about bump keying, but I was on another forum (non-lockpicking forum) where someone made a post about some TV show on bump keying. Long story short, someone replied and said the following:

yes its been out for ages
HOWEVER a good locksmith can simply pin a lcok in a way that bump keys no longer work and it can be done a hell of lot cheaper than placing a Medeco M3 on your door

/*Rant Mode

Mr Tobias & Mr Blaze should be hung up by the Gonads, Security Through Obscerity dosent work on software but how many unpatched machines would there be if you had to pay $100- $150 for each patch that came out.
*/ End Rant Mode

Still itâ€™s been good for business

Question: Am I mistaken, or is this completely false? I was under the impression that the bump key doesn't really care how a lock is pinned, it still works in the same way. And does anyone know (sorry if this is advanced topic) if bump keys work on a medeco m3?

And...I can think of software where patches cost $100

Thank you,
Biff

by **Schuyler** » 21 Sep 2006 22:54

Actually, DB would contend that you can pin a lock so bumping doesn't work, but Zeke has bumped DBs style of pinning.

I've been hoping for another report from the two of them on the solo 9 pin, and this may be the exact opportunity for that update.

However, I think that guy is speaking out of ignorance, whatever DB and Zeke come up with.

by **illusion** » 22 Sep 2006 5:02

They don't work on an M3 - in a practical sense at least. You would need every combination possible for the angles of roatation. This means you have a crud load of keys to carry around... Well more than just a few really.

I'm unsure as to how a locksmith would do it - is it the same as has been suggested? Is there a new easy solution? I'm skeptical, but willing to hear of new ideas.

by **Biff** » 22 Sep 2006 10:53

I was under the impression that he was talking about just a standard 5 pin schlage, maybe I'll ask him

by **Blink** » 22 Sep 2006 22:47

What about pinning a lock with pins longer than standard pins.

ie: Schlage cylinder pinned with two pins that would be a numbe 11, but we know there is no such thing. So when someone tried to use a bump key, that is cut for the standard 9 depth, it would not work, it would always hold it high. Ofcourse, when pinning you would keep it within MACS, and just use a code machine like the Blitz, to eyeball the cut of the key.

Anything wrong with this idea?

The pins you could just get from a universal kit, they wouldn't have to be real Schlage pins.

by **Romstar** » 22 Sep 2006 23:07

You can't go any deeper into the key. The maximum depths exist for a reason.

Romstar

by **Bud Wiser** » 22 Sep 2006 23:17

I made a suggestion on the last thread about this but no one had any comments on it. I still think it sounds like a solid approach, much simpler then previous ideas.

Why not use different materials for each pin? Lead, magnesium, copper, and aluminum, or any thing different that would not conflict with the locks normal operation. There by causing the pins to clear the sheer line at different intervals of time, because they all get the same kinetic energy imparted and complete their travel at different rates.

This approach can be used for up and lower pins, minimum cost, and work, and theoretically could work.

by **Blink** » 22 Sep 2006 23:25

Ahh, I see the problem now, the pins rest on the warding, so you can only have a depth so deep.

I like the idea of the different pin materials, having pins in lead and aluminum would be interesting, that combined with high low/max depth pinning might be a problem?

by **Romstar** » 22 Sep 2006 23:55

Using alternative materials for lock pins could possibly result in a wide variety of problems.

Lead, copper and aluminum for example exhibit various degrees of wear when in contact with other materials such as steel or brass. Shavings could accumulate in the lock from these materials eventually compromising the function of the cylinder. Bear in mind the pins are made of a harder or equal material so that they do not wear down from repeated key insertion and removal from the cylinder.

Additionally, for those locks which desire or even require a UL listing, (which I might add are the locks that are more susceptable to bumping) could not get such a listing without using specific materials to meet the various criteria already in place for UL standards.

While there is some notion that different materials, and therefor different densities could change the rate of ascention and decent of the pins, I do not believe that it would be sufficient to prevent bumping. Likely, it would only require a better technique with the hammer.

What you are looking for is any device or mechanism that can interupt basic newtonian physics. Look for spring or ball additions to absorb the energy from a bump attack.

Try a bump attack on a cut away lock, and watch which pins jump higher, and how long it takes for them to be pushed back by the springs. This is a good place for you to start. :wink:

Romstar

by **n2oah** » 23 Sep 2006 0:24

There is, as far as I am concerned, no way to pin a pin tumbler lock so that it can't be bumped. You can't go any farther into the key because the holes for pins are only drilled down so deep. If you put a really long pin in it would block the shear line all the time. Tell the idiot at that one other forum to stick to what he knows instead of making up/believing some stupid stuff. Lead much too soft to be used in a lock, and would grind down under normal operation. Not to mention having to wash your hands every time you put your hand in the pocket with the key in it.

by **n2oah** » 23 Sep 2006 0:27

Can you please link me up to this? I really want to have a go at him. Maybe it's just the testosterone today...
God, I hate know-it-all type people. That "hung by the gonads" comment really irked me.

by **Bud Wiser** » 23 Sep 2006 0:37

Romstar - insightful response, appreciate the reply to my post. I still believe there is a way to defeat bumping by changing some thing that will in effect cause the pins to clear the sheer line at different intervals. My idea with different materials was a stab at it. Not being a locksmith however I was not aware of UL requirements. Still there must be some materials that might be different enough and still be UL accepted. Or another simple mod. So the search continues!

by **Romstar** » 23 Sep 2006 1:05

Bud Wiser wrote:Romstar - insightful response, appreciate the reply to my post. I still believe there is a way to defeat bumping by changing some thing that will in effect cause the pins to clear the sheer line at different intervals. My idea with different materials was a stab at it. Not being a locksmith however I was not aware of UL requirements. Still there must be some materials that might be different enough and still be UL accepted. Or another simple mod. So the search continues!

I was serious about bumping a cut away lock.

Watch very carefully as the pins jump when you bump it. Try pinning all 1s, all 2s, all 3s and so on. Watch each time you bump it. Change the springs as necessary if the become damaged. Then, change up and pin as you would for a normal lock. Do you see any differences between the rise and fall of the different height pins? What happens if you vary the height of the driver pins? Now, add something to the mix. Try lead balls between the drivers and the springs. Vary the weights of the driver springs. You will see what I am talking about if you can bump a cut away.

Have fun, and you will figure this out. :wink:

Romstar

by **LockNewbie21** » 27 Sep 2006 13:56

I tried my idea of Hardened Steal Pins and Round cut key and very very strong springs

But wear and tear would suckkkk reaally bad.. wortha shot though

by **globallockytoo** » 27 Sep 2006 14:09

About 35 years ago, Australian lock manufacturer Lockwood (Ogden Industries) produced the 245 & 247 padlock series. These padlocks were their top of the range at the time.

The issue of bumping and combing came up at that time and after some brainstorming, the Lockwood engineers came up with a solution. Longer driver pins. This was able to work because the bible in the padlock body was significantly longer than in a conventional cylinder.

In short....bumping could not altogether be 100% prevented but combing certainly was.

Bumping requires that the bottom pins travel sufficient distance to create the shear line. The use of stronger quality pin hole springs offered more resistance to bumping but it is not absolute.

Can you pin locks so bumping doesn't work?

Can you pin locks so bumping doesn't work?

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