Possible simple defeat for bumping?

by **devildog** » 18 Sep 2006 1:48

This got binned as an idea but if you used a lighter weight material for the pin and more dense for the ball bearing would that not throw out the effect?

Good one, I was thinking just that when I read the ball bearing idea; how about an aluminum key pin and a lead ball bearing?

by **TheonlyQ** » 2 Oct 2006 16:33

All we need is someone to build a prototype based on the different material density concept and try it out...

anyone with some actuall skills up for this (as opposed to just ideas

) ?

Q

by **Schuyler** » 3 Oct 2006 1:14

Read today's blackbag: http://www.toool.nl/blackbag/?p=48

I won't even try to retype the name of the company who have the bump resistant pins...

by **ldnlksmth** » 8 Oct 2006 23:59

forgive my igorance, but re-invent the wheel? Spool pins and mushroom pins were designed to keep picks out, why wouldn't they work on bump keys too? If I understand correctly, the whole transferrence of energy thing might make the pins jump too quickly, but if you're putting turning pressure at the same time, wouldn't that cause the drivers to bind as they cross the sheer line? maybe loading them down by putting an appropriately sized master wafer between the spring and the mushroom pin would keep it in line to bind.

by **Mememe** » 15 Oct 2006 7:49

Not exactly bump-proof but certainly could be a bump deterrent. How about replacing the pins with flints from a Zippo and clean the lock with some flammable fluid.

Just wait and see the sparks fly

by **NKT** » 15 Oct 2006 9:28

I can confirm that adding a second pin in the top of the chamber doesn't work. I've tried it, with Pinky, about 18 months ago. It didn't work then, and so presumably doesn't now. Didn't make any difference to picking or pickgun, either.

Spring differences don't make much odds either. A really srong spring tweaked down to almost nothing might work, but I've not tried that.

I don't think that bumpkeys work in the way that everyone thinks they do.

Also, d_b is right to point out that no-one is going to carry 6 bumpkeys for a lock type, unless it is something special, like the Mul-T-Lock interactive. Even though you guys only have 5 types of lock, one of which is bumpproof, not many people are going to carry 20 keys just in case. Far more likely is they will get a bumpkey for American, for example, and go out and target those locks it fits.

by **ldnlksmth** » 15 Oct 2006 11:31

I guess the real question is how much of a target is your lock anyways? When it comes to residential B&E, statistically the bad guys don't bother bypassing the lock as much as destroying the door. In a commercial setting, it might be more of a problem, but again, there are easier ways to get around a locked door.

by **NKT** » 16 Oct 2006 6:34

As I've said elsewhere, I'd love to see someone try to bump my front door.

Is there any word on the telescoping pins? Does anyone even know which way up they go? I can't really see how it works, since one way up it will leave the outer part there, and the other way up it wouldn't seem to do much except leave that outer part up the top of the lock, jamming it.

by **Schuyler** » 16 Oct 2006 13:21

ldnlksmth wrote:I guess the real question is how much of a target is your lock anyways? When it comes to residential B&E, statistically the bad guys don't bother bypassing the lock as much as destroying the door. In a commercial setting, it might be more of a problem, but again, there are easier ways to get around a locked door.

True as that presently is, I always wonder how often a picked or bumped lock is just chalked up to the owner forgetting to lock the door, or having given someone a spare key.

It seems like Violent entry is 100% detectable, while people may have to guess and grope in the dark at accurate NDE numbers. Some jerk steals your computer out of your house, how many police forces are going to come forensically inspect your lock after you've filed the report?

I'm not saying that the numbers are wrong, but they definately aren't the be all and end all of accuracy so far as I can see.

by **NKT** » 17 Oct 2006 9:22

It's also likely that it would generate a lot of mis-trust, especially in a shared house. Having said that, many shared houses in the UK have a cheap latch or a 2 lever lock on the room doors, which anyone could get past in a few minutes without a trace, even without a bumpkey.

by **ldnlksmth** » 17 Oct 2006 23:16

criminals are, by definition, lazy. they go for the fastest route, which would indicate that bumping might (depending on the lock) be the way to go. I saw a picture in a Locksmith Ledger (re: forensic locksmithing) that showed a dimple in the lock plug after a bump key was used. I'd be curious to know how long it takes for such a dimple to occur?

by **Romstar** » 18 Oct 2006 0:02

ldnlksmth wrote:criminals are, by definition, lazy. they go for the fastest route, which would indicate that bumping might (depending on the lock) be the way to go. I saw a picture in a Locksmith Ledger (re: forensic locksmithing) that showed a dimple in the lock plug after a bump key was used. I'd be curious to know how long it takes for such a dimple to occur?

Depending on the quality of the materials, if a bumper is used on the shoulder and the skill of the attacker, I would say anywhere from 5-50 strikes. Depending on these combinations.

On a cheap lock, with no bumper on the shoulder of the key and a novice attacker, It could happen the first time.

Not to mention that similar dimples occur in some locks as a result of normal usage. So it is NOT a direct indicator.

Romstar

by **ldnlksmth** » 18 Oct 2006 10:03

I figured as much, mostly because of the variables. I'm sure there's a whole CSI thing that would prove something... striae on the pins from picks, unusual something or other... but I think the comment of "I doubt there'd be forensic investigation" is probably correct.

by **digital_blue** » 18 Oct 2006 10:24

ldnlksmth wrote:criminals are, by definition, lazy.

I thought that "by definition", they were people who break the law.

db

by **Romstar** » 18 Oct 2006 10:24

Forensic investigations work on a sliding scale of probability.

This means that you start with the big stuff, and work your way down to the smaller stuff. The objective is to put your resources into the areas where you are most likely to find the best evidence.

A lock may be interesting, and may even tell you something about the mindset of the criminal, but it doesn't help in the overall conviction.

The better equiped the lab, the more likely they will pay some attention to the locks.

After fingerprinting, microscoptic investigation of the lock is your best bet, as it is possible to do a tool mark analysis in such a case.

In any event, a great deal of that decision would rest on the primary investigator and how important they felt the method of entry was to the case overall.

Romstar

Possible simple defeat for bumping?

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