Some questions

by **tonsofquestions** » 8 Sep 2003 4:43

Hi all. I'm new to locksmithing, but I'm trying to learn more, thanks to this wonderful resource you have here. However, I have a few questions that I was unable to find answers to in the board. First, I was wondering how a double cylinder lock works. I understand how a normal deadbolt works, but the double cylinder eludes me (I don't want to go buy one just to take it apart). The key isn't symmetrical, so it obviously isn't moving the same pins, regardless of the side the key is inserted. (Also makes sense, since it's called a "double cylinder"). But if it's only setting some pins, how does the deadbolt still turn when the other cylinder's pins aren't set? I'm probably just missing something simple, but I can't figure out what it is.
Secondly, I understand the differences (at least can understand how the differences could be useful) of different pick types, but what is the purpose of different kinds of tension wrenches? I see how size can be important, but what makes a "twist tension wrench" useful, as compared to a standard one? What about the "feather light tension wrench", or the "spring tension wrench"?
Next, I wanted to get myself a set of lockpicks to practice with, and I had a few questions regarding those. Some people talked about the jackknife set, but there seemed to be mixed opinions, so I was wondering if there were any other relavant pros/cons about them. I also saw an interesting set which I was wondering if anyone knew of to be good/bad: the "Concealable Kit" at http://www.lockpicktools.com/lockpicks.htm. I've seen a lot of people suggest the 14-piece set as being a good all-round lockpick set, and I was curious as to if/why this is better to get than buying all of the picks separately. On the subject of picks, which is better (or, since there is no real "better" what are the benefits/disadvantages) of different kinds of grips on the picks? What is preferred? Plain? Reinforced? Vinyl Handles? "Rippled" (seen on http://www.lockpicktools.com/lockpicks.htm)? "Double-sided", even? For that matter, is it advisable for a beginner to get stainless steel or spring steel lockpicks (or some combination?)
Would it also be a good idea for someone who is interested in learning more about locksmithing to get additional tools such as warded keys or something along those lines? What about padlock shims (BTW, are padlock shims one-use only? I thought I read somewhere that they were reusable, but if they are, then why sell them in packs of 20?)
Lastly, a small questions on legal matters. I understand that in most (if not all) states it is legal to possess lockpicks (and obviously not to use them for illegal purposes). However, most of the websites I have seen that sell lockpicks claim that you have to be "a bona fide locksmith (etc)" or some such in order to purchase from them. How does one solve this problem, when just wanting to learn? I read a post about how to obtain a locksmith license in California, but I am not in California, and while I would assume that there are similar processes elsewhere, I do not want to start a business (there are many references to "manager" in the documents), and I do not particularly want to have to pay fees to register, or renew the license (which probably has to be done fairly frequently). Is there some sort of document I can get that allows me to purchase and possess lockpicks that is different (and preferably requires no fees)?
*deep breath*
I apologize for the length of that. I should probably have separated it into multiple posts, which I suppose can be done if others think that it is necessary.
Thanks for your time and assistance.

by **plasticcat** » 8 Sep 2003 21:30

LONGEST POST EVER
i forget some of what you put but you dont have to have a liscense to order picks dont buy from that site and reinforced handels are the best just buy a set not each one probally for you the 14 but some guy posted at southord they have a tainted 32 peacie for 50 bucks i was gonna buy that but i dont got 50 bucks to waste so im gonna keep my 17 for now also you can reuse shims they have 20 peices for diffrent type of locks i would not worry about wared picks right now cause its pretty easy to use stick it in jiggle and what not and itll open i have made my own from wared keys grind down the middle and make a key that looks like this

just make something like that and it will open right up no need to buy them and they have diffrent size tension wrench for diffrent size locks i guess cause you can use a huge tension wrench in a little key way and a small one in a heavy duty lock you will bend your tension wrench trying to turn a heavy duty lock the feather wrench is for locks that need very light tension i am gonna pick me up one, there was this one file cabnit lock i could almost not pick cause of such little tension you needed and the jack knife set is some nice to have a key chain but dont make it your primary pick set go buy a real one

i know i dont have the best spelling / typeing i hope you can read

hope that helps tell me if i forgot to answer any of your question and rember

GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND

by **safecracker** » 8 Sep 2003 22:05

also to add to that a twist flex gives you a better feel and position in tight spots i dont like normal tnsion wrenches the feel just sucks. As I posted on this question before padlock shims are reuseable. Oh and spring loaded tension tools are really a waste IMO they are for ppl who just cant get tension correct. When you say concealable kit I believe you mean the KGB kit, great set. You don't need many tools to pick standard locks. 14 is the largest set I will buy even it has picks I dont use. As for stainless or spring steel its a personal thing try them both see what you like. You do not have to be licensed to buy picks in most states that line is there to cover their asses. the acual translation means "real locksmith" so this means do you really pick locks? If so your a real locksmith. You said you searched before asking these questions? search again most have been answered in other threads anyway happy picking.

by **tonsofquestions** » 9 Sep 2003 1:41

Heh. Thanks for the responses. Again, I apologize for the "longest post ever" record. :wink:

And yes, safecracker, I did search through the posts. A few of my questions may have been answered, but only partially, hence why I felt the need to ask them again. (Such as why padlock shims are sold in packs of 20 (even if there are 4 sizes) if they are reusable).
For the "concealable kit", I did not mean the KGB kit at http://www.lockpicks.com/product.asp?0=204&1=217&3=70 (pic:

). I meant the "concealable kit" at http://www.lockpicktools.com/lockpicks.htm, which looks like:

, or

. Also, if it is reccomended to try both spring and stainless steel, to test preferences why is it a better idea to buy a set, rather than individual picks? For that matter, why does southord not seem to sell any spring steel picks (at least not on their website). Something small I am still curious about is the "rippled" handle (at http://www.lockpicktools.com/lockpicks.htm ), which was not commented on. I'd hazard a guess that the feel to the hand might be somewhere between that of the reinforced handles, and the regular handles, but I was wondering if anyone had tried them, or knew anything about them.
Also, another question left unanswered is about other forms of licensing. Is the only option that of getting a business license (when I don't want to start a business), or are there other choices available?
Lastly, I am still wondering as to the workings of a double cylinder lock. I'm sure there's someone who knows this, but I was unable to find any useful information on Google (and nothing at all on the board).
Thanks again for all the help.

by **safecracker** » 9 Sep 2003 8:44

I've never used the rippled handles but I believe it's just a comfort thing. As far as being licensed a biz license is your only choice in Cali. That concealment kit looks like the handles are a lil small and it wouldnt be comfortable to pick with. Nobody said it was a better idea to buy a set rather then indavidual picks, it's really up to you although most ppl prefer stainless. As far as the shims....they are not actually meant to be reuseable they just are most of the time. I have my theory on the double cylinder but I have never had to deal with 1 so I can't do anymore then speculate.

by **The-Sand-Box** » 9 Sep 2003 16:40

It would appear that having a business licence would do the trick. Here is a post I made a few days ago.

Well. I'm not sure how much the laws differ from Canada to the US. But I was able to get my business licence at age 16. For computer sales and graphic design. And it was very inexpensive ($65 CDN) that one is for a sole propritor ship. meaning you are trading as your company name. There are limited's LTD's which cost about a grand. The only advantage there is if someone decides to sue becuase you suck at what you do then they can only get as much as the companys worth and not go after your personally. So if your company is worth 2 grand that don't get a cent more. Then there are registered trademarks and such that companies like sony and ibm use. I doubt anyone here has the money to afford one though. : D gl

The only question for you would be must you be bondable with a certificate in locksmithing. The business licence's are cheap. and you only have to re register every 5 years or so. Even so you may be able to get away with just showing them the biz number. Or just go to another site. gl

by **tonsofquestions** » 10 Sep 2003 4:13

Hmm. Interesting. Thanks for the info. I'm not in California, but I'd guess that a lot of the stuff would be the same.

by **safecracker** » 10 Sep 2003 4:23

what state are you in?

by **tonsofquestions** » 11 Sep 2003 1:15

Illinois

by **safecracker** » 11 Sep 2003 1:29

http://spinotew1.commerce.state.il.us/d ... enDocument

http://www.legis.state.il.us/commission ... tions.html

wow that took 30 seconds with google lol I'm sorry but I find it seriously hard to believe you tried to look it up no offense.

is there a reason you wanna get your cert? interested in becomming a locksmith? You know you can possess picks without a license right?

by **tonsofquestions** » 11 Sep 2003 1:54

safecracker wrote:wow that took 30 seconds with google lol I'm sorry but I find it seriously hard to believe you tried to look it up no offense.

Well, as far as I recall, I never claimed to have looked it up, even though I had. I was asking about different forms of certification (more on that in a sec), and I had already said that I had expected stuff in Illinois to be the same as in other places, in terms of getting a business license:

tonsofquestions wrote:Hmm. Interesting. Thanks for the info. I'm not in California, but I'd guess that a lot of the stuff would be the same.

safecracker wrote:is there a reason you wanna get your cert? interested in becomming a locksmith? You know you can possess picks without a license right?

I'm not sure about being a locksmith. Not right now, at least, since I'm still trying to learn. Again, like I had said, I am curious about other forms of licensing, not nessecarily a business license:

tonsofquestions wrote:Also, another question left unanswered is about other forms of licensing. Is the only option that of getting a business license (when I don't want to start a business), or are there other choices available?

I suppose an example of this (albeit not a great one, since I can't come up with a particularly good one atm) would be that of a pilot's license. Some people like to get a pilot's license for the experience. They have the desire (and then get knowledge and practice) of flying airplanes, and so they take courses and spend a while flying. They then get a pilot's certification, which entitles them to fly solo, should they want to. They can't fly commercial airplanes (which would require a different kind of license), or start up their own airplane shuttle business (which would again require a different license, as well as a business license), but they can do small stuff by themselves or with a few friends if they want to. Yet another benefit of the different kinds of licenses are the differences in the prices, with the solo one (obviously) being the cheapest.
Again, it's not the best example, but it's kind of what I'm looking for. I don't want to start a company, but I'm looking for some kind of license/certification that proves I know what I'm doing, that I'm entitled to do it if I want, and that it's legal. Not that I think it's not legal, but to show those in doubt about its legality *glares at significant other*.
That make any sense? Is there such a thing? Or is a business license the only way to go?

by **safecracker** » 11 Sep 2003 2:10

no there are not other forms because there would be no point, you can legally pick as it is you just cant pick without premission of the owner of the lock.

all the license does is make you able to charge ppl to pick there locks you can already do so for free.

by **GrodyCody** » 18 Dec 2003 14:20

I bought a 20 piece laminated rippled handle lock pick set from lockpicktools.com and they are the best picks iv ever bought. They give you a lot more control while picking and they are much easier to grip.
A++

by **Chucklz** » 18 Dec 2003 15:53

The "double cylinder lock" probably has the holes drilled for the pins at an offset, that is so they dont line up when the plug is rotated 180degrees. Just a thought.

The spring steel/ stainless steel issue is pretty much a non issue as far as I am concerned. I currently use a Petersen set , made of spring steel, and some picks ive ground myself, out of stainless. Spring steel seems to be common among the various manufacturers ie HPC, Petersen (although their governemnt elite set is made of some moly steel that looks very very interesting) While the Falle set and the Southord sets seem to be made of stainless, or something like it.

About your kit selection, I would say starting with any kind of jackkniife style set could end up being a problem. A nice 8 or 14 piece set will do you plenty fine.

You said you are interested in locksmithing, not just picking. If this is so, I would save money on the picksets, and put it towards a nice pin kit. But then again, ask Varjeal about the biz.

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