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impressioning bilocks

Picked all the easy locks and want to step up your game? Further your lock picking techniques, exchange pro tips, videos, lessons, and develop your skills here.

Postby globallockytoo » 21 Oct 2006 1:21

Bud Wiser wrote:What about bumping? Is the ad's claim true, it can not be bumped? thx



You can be guaranteed ....it is not possible to bump a Bilock cylinder.
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Postby globallockytoo » 21 Oct 2006 1:32

TOWCH wrote:An example: You pin a bilock 1,2,1,2,1,2 on both sides with false notches on all the 1 pins at the 2 depth. You cut a key to all 2 cuts. What is keeping the sidebar from fully retracting? The sidebar bottoming out on the false notches right? The true notches are not bottomed out so they still have some play to them. Shouldn't the pins bound by the sidebar bottoming out leave distinguishing impressions? Perhaps these impressions would be too difficult to recognize but conceptually this seems reasonable.

If too faint of marks is a problem, maybe it is necessary to use marker on the key and use probes to lift the pins for insertion and withdrawl of the blank.

Of course, things tend to work much better in theory than execution and I can understand if in practice impressioning is not reasonable, but I think it is worth while isolating the exact reason why problems are unreasonable. It tends to give birth to solutions that would not have otherwise have been thought of. For instance: how much room does the keyway leave at the bottom for a pin and cam?



Unfortunately your theory is flawed. The pins are stainless steel and the false cuts are not deep enough for the finger pins to drop into. All that will happen will be the sidebar jamming and the pin being wrongly positioned on the key.

Secondly, all Bilock keys are produced as an original, cut on proprietary machinery (although a jig is available for the Unocode machine), then they are bent into shape on a press machine. The patented trigger device is added and choice of head installed. It is virtually impossible to impression because one cannot cut different cuts on two sides in symmetrical locations. Whereas mentioned above that the identical cuts are on both sides of the key, this would require prior knowledge and/or a determinator tool as well as the trigger device loaded into the key. The decoder tool might only work (if there was one, like shrub claims) if it has the trigger device built in. (The trigger device is a worldwide patented part of the key, so copying it would infringe the patent and bring about litigation to the perpetrator)
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Postby TOWCH » 21 Oct 2006 15:57

To make this conversation easier for others to follow:
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=1001&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
http://www.aje.com.au/featured/bilocknewgen/newgen.htm
http://protections-vol.com/bilock.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/BiLock-Extreme-High-Security-Q-C-C-Factory-Cutaway_W0QQitemZ7614287426QQcategoryZ53150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that when the sidebar is aligned at all holes and dummy holes the lock could be forced. I'm saying that at that point, the binding false cuts should leave impressions for the same reason impressioning works on any lock.

Other considerations to take in to account:
-Is there ever more than one dummy hole on a pin?
-Are the dummy holes a consistent offset from the real holes?
-Are the dummy holes always below the true holes?(I've heard of dumber things being done.)

These would make deduction of the true cuts simpler.

Problems with cutting the keys could most easily be solved by using 2 L shaped blanks. If the trigger device is the Bilock's last stand I think the battle is won.
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Postby Bud Wiser » 21 Oct 2006 16:06

That's a beautiful cutaway. Did you win that auction?
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Postby globallockytoo » 22 Oct 2006 2:27

TOWCH wrote:To make this conversation easier for others to follow:
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=1001&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
http://www.aje.com.au/featured/bilocknewgen/newgen.htm
http://protections-vol.com/bilock.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/BiLock-Extreme-High-Security-Q-C-C-Factory-Cutaway_W0QQitemZ7614287426QQcategoryZ53150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that when the sidebar is aligned at all holes and dummy holes the lock could be forced. I'm saying that at that point, the binding false cuts should leave impressions for the same reason impressioning works on any lock.

Other considerations to take in to account:
-Is there ever more than one dummy hole on a pin?
-Are the dummy holes a consistent offset from the real holes?
-Are the dummy holes always below the true holes?(I've heard of dumber things being done.)

These would make deduction of the true cuts simpler.

Problems with cutting the keys could most easily be solved by using 2 L shaped blanks. If the trigger device is the Bilock's last stand I think the battle is won.


Firstly,
First Generation product is significantly easier to manipulate but still virtually impossible to impression. (I'll explain why shortly)

The dummy holes do not always appear below the correct finger pin hole...NO. They are staggered. There is never more than one dummy hole on a pin. In some master pins there are no dummy holes.

Impressioning is not possible for multiple reasons. (a) a blank will need to have the head installed and the patented trigger included before inserting into the keyway. (b) each pin being stainless steel and all the exact same dimensions makes determining the correct depth nearly impossible. (c) normal impressioning methods require the key, once inserted to have either up and down pressure applied while torquing or a pulling pressure applied while torquing. Pulling the key out of the plug will result in the patented trigger mechanism being misaligned preventing the sidebars from depressing. (d) if the sidebar finger pins jam in the dummy holes, the bottom of each pin will not move on the keyblank, thereby not allowing for any positive or negative readings. (e) the amount of time required to successfully impression a Bilock cylinder (if it could be done) would not warrant the expense of the customer and a customer would never require a Bilock cylinder to be impressioned because the Bilock dealer will have the codes on file to produce the keys as originals anyway.

2 L shaped blanks is a tried method that might be successful if the trigger mechanism can be attached prior to the key being made, but this is explained above as to why it is not possible.
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Postby Pickitup » 22 Oct 2006 11:19

Romstar the god of lockpicker 8) says: "No lock is perfect, no lock is immune, everything can be picked, if you can make a key, you can make a pick". I LOVE all these sentences

What about this!!!

What about this?

What?

What?

I'm going to be crazy!

What! What! What??
For 20 pix... my pretty DB sign removed... SIGH!
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Postby illusion » 22 Oct 2006 11:22

WTF are you on about you raving lunatic? :?
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Postby Bud Wiser » 22 Oct 2006 14:10

Your just jealous he's high on Rom and not you :)
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Postby TOWCH » 22 Oct 2006 17:10

globallockytoo wrote:
TOWCH wrote:To make this conversation easier for others to follow:
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=1001&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
http://www.aje.com.au/featured/bilocknewgen/newgen.htm
http://protections-vol.com/bilock.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/BiLock-Extreme-High-Security-Q-C-C-Factory-Cutaway_W0QQitemZ7614287426QQcategoryZ53150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that when the sidebar is aligned at all holes and dummy holes the lock could be forced. I'm saying that at that point, the binding false cuts should leave impressions for the same reason impressioning works on any lock.

Other considerations to take in to account:
-Is there ever more than one dummy hole on a pin?
-Are the dummy holes a consistent offset from the real holes?
-Are the dummy holes always below the true holes?(I've heard of dumber things being done.)

These would make deduction of the true cuts simpler.

Problems with cutting the keys could most easily be solved by using 2 L shaped blanks. If the trigger device is the Bilock's last stand I think the battle is won.


Firstly,
First Generation product is significantly easier to manipulate but still virtually impossible to impression. (I'll explain why shortly)

The dummy holes do not always appear below the correct finger pin hole...NO. They are staggered. There is never more than one dummy hole on a pin. In some master pins there are no dummy holes.

Impressioning is not possible for multiple reasons. (a) a blank will need to have the head installed and the patented trigger included before inserting into the keyway. (b) each pin being stainless steel and all the exact same dimensions makes determining the correct depth nearly impossible. (c) normal impressioning methods require the key, once inserted to have either up and down pressure applied while torquing or a pulling pressure applied while torquing. Pulling the key out of the plug will result in the patented trigger mechanism being misaligned preventing the sidebars from depressing. (d) if the sidebar finger pins jam in the dummy holes, the bottom of each pin will not move on the keyblank, thereby not allowing for any positive or negative readings. (e) the amount of time required to successfully impression a Bilock cylinder (if it could be done) would not warrant the expense of the customer and a customer would never require a Bilock cylinder to be impressioned because the Bilock dealer will have the codes on file to produce the keys as originals anyway.

2 L shaped blanks is a tried method that might be successful if the trigger mechanism can be attached prior to the key being made, but this is explained above as to why it is not possible.


You have much more experience with the product than me so I honestly will take your word for it. Sent you a pm.
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Postby Yadkci » 29 Oct 2006 3:18

globallockytoo wrote:
TOWCH wrote:To make this conversation easier for others to follow:
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=1001&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
http://www.aje.com.au/featured/bilocknewgen/newgen.htm
http://protections-vol.com/bilock.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/BiLock-Extreme-High-Security-Q-C-C-Factory-Cutaway_W0QQitemZ7614287426QQcategoryZ53150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that when the sidebar is aligned at all holes and dummy holes the lock could be forced. I'm saying that at that point, the binding false cuts should leave impressions for the same reason impressioning works on any lock.

Other considerations to take in to account:
-Is there ever more than one dummy hole on a pin?
-Are the dummy holes a consistent offset from the real holes?
-Are the dummy holes always below the true holes?(I've heard of dumber things being done.)

These would make deduction of the true cuts simpler.

Problems with cutting the keys could most easily be solved by using 2 L shaped blanks. If the trigger device is the Bilock's last stand I think the battle is won.


Firstly,
First Generation product is significantly easier to manipulate but still virtually impossible to impression. (I'll explain why shortly)

The dummy holes do not always appear below the correct finger pin hole...NO. They are staggered. There is never more than one dummy hole on a pin. In some master pins there are no dummy holes.

Impressioning is not possible for multiple reasons. (a) a blank will need to have the head installed and the patented trigger included before inserting into the keyway. (b) each pin being stainless steel and all the exact same dimensions makes determining the correct depth nearly impossible. (c) normal impressioning methods require the key, once inserted to have either up and down pressure applied while torquing or a pulling pressure applied while torquing. Pulling the key out of the plug will result in the patented trigger mechanism being misaligned preventing the sidebars from depressing. (d) if the sidebar finger pins jam in the dummy holes, the bottom of each pin will not move on the keyblank, thereby not allowing for any positive or negative readings. (e) the amount of time required to successfully impression a Bilock cylinder (if it could be done) would not warrant the expense of the customer and a customer would never require a Bilock cylinder to be impressioned because the Bilock dealer will have the codes on file to produce the keys as originals anyway.

2 L shaped blanks is a tried method that might be successful if the trigger mechanism can be attached prior to the key being made, but this is explained above as to why it is not possible.


No bilock master pins have dummy holes. I also have quite alot of experience with bilock, I'm quite positive bilock pins are brass, with a satin chrome finish. When i was at trade school, a bilock rep came and gave us a class on the product and stated the reason bilock could not be impressioned because "Every pin is under the same amount of spring pressure". I haven't given it much thought, but it sounds pretty right to me.

I have friends at trade school who have made picking tools for bilock, although i haven't seen it used, i've heard he's had a reasonable amount of success with it. I've been meaning to make one myself, but i haven't had time. It was basically a double rake wich doubled as a tension tool.

I'd like to see other peoples ideas of bilock picks.
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Postby globallockytoo » 29 Oct 2006 22:13

Every pin is under the same amount of spring pressure". I haven't given it much thought, but it sounds pretty right to me


what does this mean?



all pin tumbler locks have the same amount of pressure in the bible.

There isnt differing tension in the springs in any pin tumbler I'm familiar with....although I could be wrong!
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Postby d_goldsmith » 29 Oct 2006 22:29

I have a few locks where the back pins have more pressure than the front ones. The spring tension must be higher in the back, unless they are a tigher fit, but I'm pretty sure it's the spring pressure.
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Postby Omikron » 29 Oct 2006 22:32

globallockytoo wrote:
Every pin is under the same amount of spring pressure". I haven't given it much thought, but it sounds pretty right to me


what does this mean?



all pin tumbler locks have the same amount of pressure in the bible.

There isnt differing tension in the springs in any pin tumbler I'm familiar with....although I could be wrong!


I believe he is saying that the BiLock rep told him (incorrectly) that impressioning had something to do with how much spring pressure each pin was on. This is of course incorrect, although it IS true that all pins in a BiLock cylinder are under the same amount of pressure.
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Postby globallockytoo » 29 Oct 2006 23:42

Yadkci,

What is Max Cherry allowing you guys to learn these days?....And Sean Coulson would never have let a Bilock Rep come in and give the wrong information...he would have clarified the matter and set you guys straight immediately.
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Postby Yadkci » 30 Oct 2006 4:06

Haha Max and Sean were not in the room when this Bilock rep was taking the class. Also different size top pins could cause different pressure on different pins in a pin tumbler. I was going to try and explain what i thought the Bilock rep meant, but i ended up with this theory on impressioning instead.

As most of you know, bilock works by lifting pins to correct height allowing a "finger" from the side bar to slide into a hole in one of 4 positions on the pin, therefore the side bar can retract allowing the core to turn.

Hope your still with me...

Ok, Bilock pins also have a milled slot on the side with the hole, to help better locate the sidebar... (so the pin doesn't spin i guess).

So we begin the impressioning process, insert the blank, apply turning pressure and pull the blank to make our marks.

Now think about whats happening inside the lock, (for arguments sake, lets assume it's not a new gen.) The incorrect pins are not allowing the sidebar to retract, therefore when the key is pulled, this pin can still move up and down, making no mark on our blank.

The correct pins however, will not move, as the sidebar can ever so slightly enter the hole, preventing the pin from moving, and marking the blank once the pins are pulled.

So this theory suggests that the correct pins will mark and not the incorrect pins... Maybe i'm onto something here.

I might, at work on wednesday (Trade School tomorrow :P) Cut a bilock blank with all #1 cuts and randomly pin a cylinder. Theoretically, the correct cuts will mark once the correct depth is reached... Seeing as there are only 4 depths, if this works, it shouldn't be _that_ hard.

Hope this was understandable, Thoughts? Opinions anyone?
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