Profile picks

[dogyears]

I've heard a bit about them, but does anyone know how exactly they work ? I do not own these picks myself but on a purely theortical level it seems interesting.

[timal]

The Magestic High Tech set works great ! Very close to having a set of test keys in your tool kit.

[Romstar]

Profile picks are based on a very simple concept.

If you look at the average pin tumbler lock, you find 5 stacks of pins ranging in depths from 0 to 9 (in most cases). Based on a certain set of rules (MACS) certain combinations should not be made. Further, other combinations such as all 5's or all 3's are not used. Therefore only a certain number of combinations are possible.

When you look at the "wave" pattern these combinations make, you begin to notice a lot of similarities in shape. So while you can have various pinnings a lock with a 33542 combo will have the same shape as a lock with a 44653 combination. Using this idea, we discover that you can make a variety of picks which will simulate these patterns with very little effort on the part of the user.

In many cases you can cover almost all of the combinations with a small variety of specially made picks.

Profile picks, such as the HPC comp-u-picks or the Majestic high tech set are used in a very simple fashion.

You choose the pick you wish to try, insert your tension wrench (a top position is best in this case) and then insert the pick you have choosen. Move the pick in an up and down figure eight motion. Be gentle about it, tese are not rakes in the usual sense. If you have chosen the right pick, this figure eight motion will cause the pick to move the pins into the proper shape as mentioned above. At this point the lock will open.

In many cases, the proper pick will work in under 30 seconds. If it does not, you may have chosen the wrong pick. Go through the set in this fashion, and you should find the right shape in under 5 minutes.

These picks are best used in locks that are filled with security pins, or other higher security locks. The are especially useful in situations where you are not able to adequately set more than one or two pins before the lock resets.

Romstar

[dmux]

well said, yes they can open locks super fast but they still take some practice and i could never get the HPC's to work as well as the majestic set but im still plugging away at it, its fun to try different tools out

[timal]

They are definitely fun to play with.

[Romstar]

The HPC's are a bit funny. They do work, I have used them myself, but after all this time I am convinced there is a flaw in their basic design. I am working on it right now, as I want to create a set that compliments the king and queen. The problem is that while the Majestic picks work very well, they, like the king and queen can be a bit rough, and are actually MORE suited to raking than the HPC picks.

I expect to have something in the next few weeks where it concerns the new profile picks. I'll let everyone see them then after I figure out whats been bothering me about them.

Romstar

[timal]

PM when they are ready, I want some !

[unbreakable]

Shoot, and I just prepared some HPC pick templates onto some hacksaw blades for grinding.....

Shoot.

I've never seen the Majestic set, does anyone know of a template out there for them?

Thanks,
Unbreakable

[unbreakable]

I just found this- http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=6160

Seems there was a PDF of them up, but they're since gone. Does anyone have a saved copy they could email me?

[timal]

Unbreakable if you get the templates buzz me a PM.

[dogyears]

Thanks for the response, Romstar. From what I understand, then, though you call these "picks", they are not real "picks" in the traditional sense of the word, but one which takes a completely different approach to defeat a lock altogether.

Can I clarify first, though, that this will only work if the size of each pin/distance is conforms to a certain standard ? And that a pick like this would not work if there were more than 5 pins ? (would it work if the lock contained less than 5 pins ?)

Very interesting indeed. I see lots of ways this idea can be improved, this would make a great community project for the mathematically inclined. Has this idea been patented ? Is there a patent no I can refer to ?

[parapilot]

Shoot, and I just prepared some HPC pick templates onto some hacksaw blades for grinding.....

Shoot.

I've never seen the Majestic set, does anyone know of a template out there for them?

Thanks,
Unbreakable

I'v just made a HPC set, they do work, but are quite big for some of the locks over here with tight warding. The Majestic set look more complex to make and i have not found a template yet.

The HPC are still worth making.

J

[Romstar]

Thanks for the response, Romstar. From what I understand, then, though you call these "picks", they are not real "picks" in the traditional sense of the word, but one which takes a completely different approach to defeat a lock altogether.

Can I clarify first, though, that this will only work if the size of each pin/distance is conforms to a certain standard ? And that a pick like this would not work if there were more than 5 pins ? (would it work if the lock contained less than 5 pins ?)

Very interesting indeed. I see lots of ways this idea can be improved, this would make a great community project for the mathematically inclined. Has this idea been patented ? Is there a patent no I can refer to ?

For the purposes of pinning a lock, or indeed cutting the key, the depths and spaces are vitally important. For this sort of picking however, they are not as etched in stone as you may first believe.

When the picks are created a set of standard mathematical averages are used to determine the optimum placement, size and "shape" of each representative combination. So this means that while the picks may conform exactly to the Yale, Best, Corbin or other specs they are in fact a good average of a wide selection of spacings. This is important to remember, because as we have seen the shape of the pick is the most important part. The depths and spacings are all approximations.

Also bear in mind that these picks do in fact work on locks with as many as 7 pins. Some designs choose to be longer, whereas other designs require that you push the pick in and out of the lock if it is 6 or 7 pins. Looking closely at the HPC picks you will see that they are longer than the average keyway, and also that the pattern begins to repeat. This is to help assist in picking longer locks of 6 or 7 pins.

While I am not aware of any patent, I am also not aware of many of these types of picks. To my knowledge there are only 4 comercially available sets and only 2 are widely available.

I would still reference these as picks, because by their nature, you still have to manipulate the pins in order to find the proper placement to get the pick to aproximate the key bitting. It is in this manner that they acomplish their goal rather than by raking or single pin picking.

Romstar

[zeke79]

The HPC's are a bit funny. They do work, I have used them myself, but after all this time I am convinced there is a flaw in their basic design. I am working on it right now, as I want to create a set that compliments the king and queen. The problem is that while the Majestic picks work very well, they, like the king and queen can be a bit rough, and are actually MORE suited to raking than the HPC picks.

I expect to have something in the next few weeks where it concerns the new profile picks. I'll let everyone see them then after I figure out whats been bothering me about them.

Romstar

Try scaling the HPC's down to between 70 and 80% of their size and play with that. Should solve alot of the funk you have with them or atleast it did for me.

[Romstar]

That was my first thought originally, but even now, there is still something else that I am looking at. I think I know what it is, and in the next little while I will have tested out my theory.

Keep watching for that.
Romstar